- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Move to Death of Olivia Dahl. While there is consensus that Olivia Dahl is not notable in her own right, it is clear that her death was a notable event that had a profound effect on her parents, and particularly on Roald Dahl's literary works. So while the person may not have been notable, the event clearly is. – bradv 🍁 03:30, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Olivia Dahl
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Daughter who died in childhood. She clearly had a profound affect on Roald Dahl, but she's not independently notable and this content is better served merged into the Roald Dahl article. Also suffers badly from story telling. Idolwyld ( talk) 14:42, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:52, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - what about these sources on the article?
[1]
[2]
[3] Do you consider them not independent enough from the subject of the article?
Acalycine (
talk)
14:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment no, because it’s still inherited notability. It’s a tragic story, but the notability is the impact on, and later activities of her notable parents. And all the articles talk about it in that context. Idolwyld ( talk) 16:22, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment It's not disputed I think that there are plenty of sources addressing the subject of the child's death and the effect on the Dahl family so why not move it to Death of Olivia Dahl? Philafrenzy ( talk) 08:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Rename/Move per Philafrenzy's suggestion. Very few or no sources talk about her without focusing on her death. -- GRuban ( talk) 11:57, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to article on Roald Dahl. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 14:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Move As creator, I did seriously consider her independent notability when creating the article, inspired by James Phipps, who was solely notable for an event as a child. But can see that merge to Death of Olivia Dahl might be more suitable. I feel the inherited argument has slid in recent years with the slew of articles of relations of politicians etc. The article is far too detailed to be merged into Roald Dahl. No Swan So Fine ( talk) 11:38, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete but copy some content to Roald Dahl AND Patricia Neal. Most deaths of children of notable people do not get stand-alone articles, nor do the children themselves. While her death at age 7 is heartbreaking, renaming it "the death of" is not quite fitting. Consider that there is no article on Marcella Gruelle, whose death made a more significant effect on her father and then on the world. -- DiamondRemley39 ( talk) 14:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep While we know that notability cannot be inherited, sometimes it just can be inherited. Consider for example Lavinia Norcross Dickinson who is notable only as the sister of Emily Dickinson (it has survived an AfD). I don't see the point in doing a messy merge here. There is good amount of content here and the sources are all good, merging will only result in loss of information. Moving to Death of Olivia Dahl would also be appropriate. SD0001 ( talk) 17:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's an apples to oranges fallacy. Lavinia Norcross Dickinson did not inherit notability, she made notability for herself and arguably for Emily Dickinson. According to the article, "Lavinia "Vinnie" Dickinson was instrumental in achieving the posthumous publication of her sister's poems after having discovered the forty-odd manuscripts in which Emily had collected her work." Without her, Dickinson would not have the legacy she does today. Plus she's been potrayed in numerous films. The same cannot be said for Olivia Dahl.
DiamondRemley39 (
talk)
17:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't mean that she didn't inherit her sister's fame. In any case, that was not meant to be a concrete comparison.
SD0001 (
talk)
18:03, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And if moved, the topic then becomes the death of Olivia and its effect on the Dahl family, a notable topic in its own right, and ceases to be a biography of Olivia so the question of inherited notability is irrelevant. Philafrenzy ( talk) 19:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't mean that she didn't inherit her sister's fame. In any case, that was not meant to be a concrete comparison.
SD0001 (
talk)
18:03, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's an apples to oranges fallacy. Lavinia Norcross Dickinson did not inherit notability, she made notability for herself and arguably for Emily Dickinson. According to the article, "Lavinia "Vinnie" Dickinson was instrumental in achieving the posthumous publication of her sister's poems after having discovered the forty-odd manuscripts in which Emily had collected her work." Without her, Dickinson would not have the legacy she does today. Plus she's been potrayed in numerous films. The same cannot be said for Olivia Dahl.
DiamondRemley39 (
talk)
17:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Roald Dahl and the death of his daughter from measles is a tragic and well-known story to all those whose read his works. I don't see any gain in deleting the article. Conversely, it would be a loss.
Whispyhistory (
talk)
19:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And that's exactly the point. It's about Roald Dahl, and the impact on the death. The daughter herself is not independently notable. Idolwyld ( talk) 13:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are correct which is why the article should be moved to the notable subject of the death and its effects on the Dahl family, a subject which has been addressed directly and in detail by reliable sources and which is too large to fit in Roald Dahl's article without significant loss of material. Philafrenzy ( talk) 18:52, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Wikipedia is not a memorial, nor is it a Dahl wiki site. The only people who would want to read it would be reading up on her parents. People die. They leave heartbroken people behind. Some of those people are writers and other artists. Longfellow's wives. Mark Twain's toddler son. Irving Berlin's wife and child. Olive Higgins Prouty's daughters. Johnny Gruelle's daughter. Even Lorenzo Michael Murphy Odone, whose parents made big strides in treatment when he was diagnosed with ALD, does not have his own article... and their story was the subject of an award-nominated movie. What does the Olivia Dahl article accomplish as a separate article that it wouldn't in the Patricia Neal and Roald Dahl articles? Nothing. DiamondRemley39 ( talk) 13:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- It discusses the subject in one place without constraints of space. It can be summarised in the parent's articles as is the usual practice. The fact that other articles do or don't exist isn't relevant. Wikipedia is full of such anomalies. There is a well established genre of "Death of ..." articles here into which this will fit very well.
Philafrenzy (
talk)
18:58, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- The sources exist, and so the article does. The work of an editor is to knit together the disparate strands of sources into a biography, which I have done. No Swan So Fine ( talk) 10:44, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- It discusses the subject in one place without constraints of space. It can be summarised in the parent's articles as is the usual practice. The fact that other articles do or don't exist isn't relevant. Wikipedia is full of such anomalies. There is a well established genre of "Death of ..." articles here into which this will fit very well.
Philafrenzy (
talk)
18:58, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Rename/Move The Roald Dahl article is already long enough without including all of this one, and the Death of Olivia Dahl was a very significant event in his life and his wife's. Just because other stuff exists or does not exist, that is not a strong enough reason not to have an article for Olivia Dahl's death. Edwardx ( talk) 11:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per all the comments above -- indifferent to the rename, or not,
Sadads (
talk)
22:13, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Is it really necessary to bold 'per all the comments above' ? that rather impleies they're all keep when they're really not. Idolwyld ( talk) 06:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete/Redirect The subject has no independent notability whatsoever and Wikipedia isn't a memorial, but a redirect to her father or mother's article wouldn't hurt. Newshunter12 ( talk) 03:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment The numerous deletion discussions of
Patrick Bouvier Kennedy are pertinent here.
No Swan So Fine (
talk)
22:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- They’re really not. Patrick Kennedy was the son of a serving US office, born while he was in office. That’s a completely different scenario of notability, not least front page reporting on the NYT the next day. The earliest source on Olivia Dahl’s death is 26 years after the fact. This is a facile, almost ghoulish comparison. Idolwyld ( talk) 02:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Move to Death of Olivia Dahl. While there is consensus that Olivia Dahl is not notable in her own right, it is clear that her death was a notable event that had a profound effect on her parents, and particularly on Roald Dahl's literary works. So while the person may not have been notable, the event clearly is. – bradv 🍁 03:30, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Olivia Dahl
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Olivia Dahl ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Daughter who died in childhood. She clearly had a profound affect on Roald Dahl, but she's not independently notable and this content is better served merged into the Roald Dahl article. Also suffers badly from story telling. Idolwyld ( talk) 14:42, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:52, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New York-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment - what about these sources on the article?
[1]
[2]
[3] Do you consider them not independent enough from the subject of the article?
Acalycine (
talk)
14:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment no, because it’s still inherited notability. It’s a tragic story, but the notability is the impact on, and later activities of her notable parents. And all the articles talk about it in that context. Idolwyld ( talk) 16:22, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment It's not disputed I think that there are plenty of sources addressing the subject of the child's death and the effect on the Dahl family so why not move it to Death of Olivia Dahl? Philafrenzy ( talk) 08:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Rename/Move per Philafrenzy's suggestion. Very few or no sources talk about her without focusing on her death. -- GRuban ( talk) 11:57, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Merge to article on Roald Dahl. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 14:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Move As creator, I did seriously consider her independent notability when creating the article, inspired by James Phipps, who was solely notable for an event as a child. But can see that merge to Death of Olivia Dahl might be more suitable. I feel the inherited argument has slid in recent years with the slew of articles of relations of politicians etc. The article is far too detailed to be merged into Roald Dahl. No Swan So Fine ( talk) 11:38, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete but copy some content to Roald Dahl AND Patricia Neal. Most deaths of children of notable people do not get stand-alone articles, nor do the children themselves. While her death at age 7 is heartbreaking, renaming it "the death of" is not quite fitting. Consider that there is no article on Marcella Gruelle, whose death made a more significant effect on her father and then on the world. -- DiamondRemley39 ( talk) 14:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep While we know that notability cannot be inherited, sometimes it just can be inherited. Consider for example Lavinia Norcross Dickinson who is notable only as the sister of Emily Dickinson (it has survived an AfD). I don't see the point in doing a messy merge here. There is good amount of content here and the sources are all good, merging will only result in loss of information. Moving to Death of Olivia Dahl would also be appropriate. SD0001 ( talk) 17:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's an apples to oranges fallacy. Lavinia Norcross Dickinson did not inherit notability, she made notability for herself and arguably for Emily Dickinson. According to the article, "Lavinia "Vinnie" Dickinson was instrumental in achieving the posthumous publication of her sister's poems after having discovered the forty-odd manuscripts in which Emily had collected her work." Without her, Dickinson would not have the legacy she does today. Plus she's been potrayed in numerous films. The same cannot be said for Olivia Dahl.
DiamondRemley39 (
talk)
17:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't mean that she didn't inherit her sister's fame. In any case, that was not meant to be a concrete comparison.
SD0001 (
talk)
18:03, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And if moved, the topic then becomes the death of Olivia and its effect on the Dahl family, a notable topic in its own right, and ceases to be a biography of Olivia so the question of inherited notability is irrelevant. Philafrenzy ( talk) 19:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but that doesn't mean that she didn't inherit her sister's fame. In any case, that was not meant to be a concrete comparison.
SD0001 (
talk)
18:03, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's an apples to oranges fallacy. Lavinia Norcross Dickinson did not inherit notability, she made notability for herself and arguably for Emily Dickinson. According to the article, "Lavinia "Vinnie" Dickinson was instrumental in achieving the posthumous publication of her sister's poems after having discovered the forty-odd manuscripts in which Emily had collected her work." Without her, Dickinson would not have the legacy she does today. Plus she's been potrayed in numerous films. The same cannot be said for Olivia Dahl.
DiamondRemley39 (
talk)
17:35, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Roald Dahl and the death of his daughter from measles is a tragic and well-known story to all those whose read his works. I don't see any gain in deleting the article. Conversely, it would be a loss.
Whispyhistory (
talk)
19:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And that's exactly the point. It's about Roald Dahl, and the impact on the death. The daughter herself is not independently notable. Idolwyld ( talk) 13:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are correct which is why the article should be moved to the notable subject of the death and its effects on the Dahl family, a subject which has been addressed directly and in detail by reliable sources and which is too large to fit in Roald Dahl's article without significant loss of material. Philafrenzy ( talk) 18:52, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Wikipedia is not a memorial, nor is it a Dahl wiki site. The only people who would want to read it would be reading up on her parents. People die. They leave heartbroken people behind. Some of those people are writers and other artists. Longfellow's wives. Mark Twain's toddler son. Irving Berlin's wife and child. Olive Higgins Prouty's daughters. Johnny Gruelle's daughter. Even Lorenzo Michael Murphy Odone, whose parents made big strides in treatment when he was diagnosed with ALD, does not have his own article... and their story was the subject of an award-nominated movie. What does the Olivia Dahl article accomplish as a separate article that it wouldn't in the Patricia Neal and Roald Dahl articles? Nothing. DiamondRemley39 ( talk) 13:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- It discusses the subject in one place without constraints of space. It can be summarised in the parent's articles as is the usual practice. The fact that other articles do or don't exist isn't relevant. Wikipedia is full of such anomalies. There is a well established genre of "Death of ..." articles here into which this will fit very well.
Philafrenzy (
talk)
18:58, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- The sources exist, and so the article does. The work of an editor is to knit together the disparate strands of sources into a biography, which I have done. No Swan So Fine ( talk) 10:44, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- It discusses the subject in one place without constraints of space. It can be summarised in the parent's articles as is the usual practice. The fact that other articles do or don't exist isn't relevant. Wikipedia is full of such anomalies. There is a well established genre of "Death of ..." articles here into which this will fit very well.
Philafrenzy (
talk)
18:58, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Rename/Move The Roald Dahl article is already long enough without including all of this one, and the Death of Olivia Dahl was a very significant event in his life and his wife's. Just because other stuff exists or does not exist, that is not a strong enough reason not to have an article for Olivia Dahl's death. Edwardx ( talk) 11:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per all the comments above -- indifferent to the rename, or not,
Sadads (
talk)
22:13, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Is it really necessary to bold 'per all the comments above' ? that rather impleies they're all keep when they're really not. Idolwyld ( talk) 06:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete/Redirect The subject has no independent notability whatsoever and Wikipedia isn't a memorial, but a redirect to her father or mother's article wouldn't hurt. Newshunter12 ( talk) 03:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment The numerous deletion discussions of
Patrick Bouvier Kennedy are pertinent here.
No Swan So Fine (
talk)
22:56, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- They’re really not. Patrick Kennedy was the son of a serving US office, born while he was in office. That’s a completely different scenario of notability, not least front page reporting on the NYT the next day. The earliest source on Olivia Dahl’s death is 26 years after the fact. This is a facile, almost ghoulish comparison. Idolwyld ( talk) 02:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.