- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to Nusantara (proposed city). Closing as "Merge" but whether there's any material at the former article that should be merged into Nusantara (proposed city) is a content question for interested editors to decide. I've left the page history visible to all. Ajpolino ( talk) 05:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
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Speculative article about a proposed capital. No mention of this topic in media, demonstrated by the lack of references in the article (the linked further reading don't even have any mention about metropolitan area). Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 03:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Jeromi Mikhael: it is not speculation, both Nusantara and Nusantara metropolitan area has already officially announced by the official government of Indonesia, even the official website has already explained it all, similar topic also found such as the
New Administrative Capital for Egypt, and those capital didn't even have official name yet, but these Indonesian new capital already officially announced, you can even search about the official Indonesian bills in the official website regarding these matter. Thank you.
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
03:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ Mbis Saravon: There are few people I would trust more in the topic area of Indonesia than Jeromi. If he is bringing this to AfD, not only is he aware of what has been announced, he understands it does not yet merit this particular article. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ Sammi Brie: Hello, Wikipedia welcomed anyone to perform their contributions, including me for instance. Your personal thought about someone you favor on Wikipedia shouldn't be used to degrade and devalue my contribution in Wikipedia. I'm just trying to give my constructive contribution here. WP:NPC, WP:APR. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 05:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I agree with what Saravon said here. Just because I'm a longstanding Indonesian topic editor doesn't mean I'm right about anything. This AfD is just a quick assesment on the worthiness of an article. If the government announce something regarding a metropolitan, I would gladly withdraw this nomination. Since most of the consensus is in favor of merging, that means that the article is not going to be deleted, but instead redirected to somewhere else, with the content still being viewable in the primary article. I suggest Mbis Saravon to do the merging themselves in order to kept authorsip attribution. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 05:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ Jeromi Mikhael: Merging the Nusantara metropolitan area to Nusatara isn't the right thing to do either, because both represents different entity eventhough it is interconnected. In Indonesian system, the capital region are comprises the capital itself as the core city and also the metropolitan area, you can see the former capital Jakarta and Jakarta metropolitan area are two different thing, and also it's applied to all main cities in Indonesia such as Surabaya with its Surabaya metropolitan area, Bandung with its Bandung metropolitan area, Medan with its Medan metropolitan area, and so on. And anyways, thank you for your concern guys, I believe it is part of your good faith to avoid any vandalism on Wikipedia, but my intention here was nothing but to give constructive contributions, I hope you guys could welcome or accept me here as part of the Wikipedia community. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 05:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I understand, but here it is. The proposed capital haven't been finished yet, and we already have three articles related to the new capital (the proposal, the capital, and the metropolitan concept). I understand that in the future this will be built. Because this metropolitan concept is still just an imagination at its best, there is no design or even a physical one (just an analogy according to the website), so it is better to combine them for the time being. If there is a clear plan from the central government and the media has covered it, then we can start creating content. So far what you have written is factual and balanced and I appreciate your constructive contribution here. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 05:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Once again, it is not "proposed", it is already "official", eventhough it is still under the development, it doesn't mean it's not official and not worthy to mention, the de facto capital of Indonesia is Nusantara according to the 2019 (and later renewed in early 2022) official bill. If you considered this project as "imagination", then explain me why some infrastructures already built there? It is already clear plan of government and the Indonesian media covered it, even the construction started since 2017 (if I'm not mistaken), in 2019 the President Joko Widodo a.k.a. Jokowi declared the official location of new capital that in 2022 "Nusantara" officially chosen as the new capital city name. Compared to similar article, the New Administrative Capital of Egypt didn't even have any official name yet it is allowed to exist in Wikipedia. And in Indonesian system, it is clear in Indonesia that capital city automatically will have the following metropolitan area. If you need to know more about Indonesian system, please kindly learn about it first. So instead of deleting the article or nominate it for deletion, please consider to put the Expand template on top of the article to engage contributors to give further improvements on article. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 06:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- We already have an article on the proposed capital. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 06:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- In Indonesian system, core city and metropolitan area are two different entity, you didn't read previous comment carefully? I even gave you examples of how capital system works in Indonesia. Jakarta ≠ Jakarta Raya, Bandung ≠ Bandung Raya, Surabaya ≠ Surabaya Raya, etc. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 07:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. — hueman1 ( talk • contributions) 04:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. — hueman1 ( talk • contributions) 04:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to Capital of Indonesia. Until there is more information and references, it is better to consolidate the information there. Hanif Al Husaini ( talk) 04:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: I think an article exists at
Nusantara (city). Maybe it's better to redirect this article there instead. —
hueman1 (
talk •
contributions)
04:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. I didn't notice that article before.
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk)
04:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ HueMan1 and Hanif Al Husaini: Hello, both Nusantara and Nusantara metropolitan area are two different thing, in Indonesia the capital region system include the main capital city as the core area, and its surrounding area. Take example from Indonesian former capital Jakarta and Jakarta metropolitan area are two different thing with different purposes, it is also applied to another main cities in Indonesia such as Surabaya and Surabaya metropolitan area, Bandung and Bandung metropolitan area, Medan and Medan metropolitan area, and so on. So please before making any assumption and suggestion, please learn and understand the Indonesian system first. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 04:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I agree. I didn't notice that article before.
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk)
04:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to Nusantara (city). There is currently no metropolitan area to speak of, so it would only make sense to merge it to the planned city (which has not physically existed yet either). dwadieff ✉ 05:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
David Wadie Fisher-Freberg: The metropolitan area which will covered Nusantara (as the core city), Balikpapan, Samarinda, and some other parts of East Kalimantan is already exist, how come you said there is no metropolitan area to speak of? the only thing that still under development is the Nusantara itself as the capital city, but the surrounding areas are pretty much ready, so the "merge" option isn't quite make sense since these region is exist and already prepared since years ago. Furthermore, in Indonesian system, the core city and metropolitan area are two different entity that shouldn't be mixed because it has distinctive regulations. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- "the core city and metropolitan area are two different entity that shouldn't be mixed because it has distinctive regulations". Can you point to the specific Undang-Undang or Peraturan here? dwadieff ✉ 02:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
David Wadie Fisher-Freberg: The metropolitan area which will covered Nusantara (as the core city), Balikpapan, Samarinda, and some other parts of East Kalimantan is already exist, how come you said there is no metropolitan area to speak of? the only thing that still under development is the Nusantara itself as the capital city, but the surrounding areas are pretty much ready, so the "merge" option isn't quite make sense since these region is exist and already prepared since years ago. Furthermore, in Indonesian system, the core city and metropolitan area are two different entity that shouldn't be mixed because it has distinctive regulations. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Support Deletion. Non-existent metropolitan area. Even
Nusantara (city) itself still pretty much only "planned" city at this moment. Support the creation of this page only if the new city is officially start functioning and actually have the metropolitan area.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
06:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Ckfasdf: What do you mean by non-existent? The metropolitan area is even already prepared ways before the designation of Nusantara itself. Just because the Nusantara still under the development, it doesn't mean it could devalue the existence of its metropolitan area. Even the
New Administrative Capital of Egypt didn't even have any official name and pretty much in similar condition, why didn't you guys nominate it for deletion? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Because it simply did not exist and proved by
the lack of references. I have no issue on dedicated page for new capital such as
Nusantara (city) or
New Administrative Capital of Egypt as they have enough references. But, to have non-existent metropolitan page as this one. it is clearly speculation or presumptions per
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
06:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- It is clear that you didn't even review the article and try to look up to the references first, the information on the article is based on the offical website of Capital Region itself, the area that will covered as metropolitan and even what will be included as part of it is even clearly defined there. It is not presumption if the official government already declared and defined it, you can even see the bills and regulations on that website. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- @ Mbis Saravon: Please kindly point out the part in the web that says "Nusantara metropolitan area". Thank you. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 07:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- And the government hasn't provide any legal documents except for the bill there. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 07:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- on
Nusantara metropolitan area page, there is only one source of reference which is from
https://ikn.go.id/tentang-ikn. Even there, there is no mention on metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
07:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Jeromi Mikhael: In
https://ikn.go.id/, the area of metropolitan (
Indonesian: Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN) will covered 256412 Ha which comprises the Nusantara (56180 Ha) as the core city (
Indonesian: Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)) + its surrounding (199962 Ha) as the part of the metropolitan area (
Indonesian: Kawasan Pengembangan IKN). And in
https://ikn.go.id/tentang-ikn, the metropolitan area are defined by three major regions namely Nusantara itself (as the core city), Samarinda, Balikpapan. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- In
https://ikn.go.id/, no single mention of metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan.Even if we use search feature on that site, still nothing show up (
https://ikn.go.id/search?q=metropolitan). and it further convinced me that it is speculation
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
09:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Serious question, did you learnt Indonesian language? because someone who learnt Indonesian language and familiar with Indonesian things would understand directly, I even put the Indonesian words in my prior comment exactly like on the website to ease your effort. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I'll have to return this question to you, since you're the one translating Kawasan Strategis Nasional (kawasan = area, strategis = strategic, nasional = national) to Nusantara metropolitan area. And here's
my contribution on the Indonesian Wikipedia.--Regards,
Jeromi Mikhael
10:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- It seems that you're not so familiar with the Indonesian system, the Indonesian terminology didn't have to be exactly mentioned as 'metropolitan area' but it bears the same meaning in English as the metropolitan area itself, such as the 'Jabodetabek' which is the popular name for
Jakarta metropolitan area, the 'Gerbang Kertosusila' for
Surabaya metropolitan area, and so on. If you go to direct-translation, the Surabaya metropolitan area name would be translated as "The Gate of Kertosusila" in English for instance, but in fact, it doesn't referred to any "gate" at all. And by the way your personal contribution should be something that you kept for yourself, it can't be used as the base argument to deprecate my contribution here
WP:APR. Without you even said it, I appreciate your contribution guys. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:56, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Indonesian language actually has exact terminology for metropolitan area which is kawasan metropolitan as stipulated in article 1.26 of Law 26/2007 and article 17 of Law 11/2020. but there is no mention of either metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan in https://ikn.go.id/. So your claim is simply unsourced. Ckfasdf ( talk) 11:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Btw, you can not translate "Gerbang kertosusila" into English as "The Gate of Kertosusila". Because it is an acronym of Gresik–Bangkalan–Mojokerto–Surabaya–Sidoarjo–Lamongan and not refer to actual "Gate" / "Gerbang".
Ckfasdf (
talk)
11:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- May I ask you serious question, are you Indonesian who familiar with Indonesian capital naming system? and did you understand Indonesian language? I already gave you clue in my previous comments, and you can clearly find it on website. And did you just repeating my point? because that's exactly my point, even there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, the name can bears the same meaning as metropolitan area itself, please see another metropolitan areas of Indonesia so you could understand the pov. I wonder why it's so hard for you to grasp the information that I'm trying to deliver. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- See.. even you agree there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, and it was you and only yourself who translate/consider Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN/Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)/Kawasan Pengembangan IKN as "metropolitan area".
Ckfasdf (
talk)
11:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- So, according to your logic, Jabodetabek ≠
Jakarta metropolitan area, Medibangro ≠
Medan metropolitan area, Gerbangkertosusila ≠
Surabaya metropolitan area because it has no "metropolitan" word in it? is that how you really think? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Jabodetabek = Jakarta metropolitan area, Medibangro = Medan metropolitan area, Gerbangkertosusila = Surabaya metropolitan area, because there are references that said so, such as https://archive.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/uu11ee/uu11ee15.htm and http://pwk.lib.itb.ac.id/index.php/bibliografi/detail/7786. On the other hand, there is no single reference that mention anything about Nusantara metropolitan area. Ckfasdf ( talk) 11:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- So, according to your logic, Jabodetabek ≠
Jakarta metropolitan area, Medibangro ≠
Medan metropolitan area, Gerbangkertosusila ≠
Surabaya metropolitan area because it has no "metropolitan" word in it? is that how you really think? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- See.. even you agree there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, and it was you and only yourself who translate/consider Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN/Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)/Kawasan Pengembangan IKN as "metropolitan area".
Ckfasdf (
talk)
11:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- May I ask you serious question, are you Indonesian who familiar with Indonesian capital naming system? and did you understand Indonesian language? I already gave you clue in my previous comments, and you can clearly find it on website. And did you just repeating my point? because that's exactly my point, even there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, the name can bears the same meaning as metropolitan area itself, please see another metropolitan areas of Indonesia so you could understand the pov. I wonder why it's so hard for you to grasp the information that I'm trying to deliver. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- It seems that you're not so familiar with the Indonesian system, the Indonesian terminology didn't have to be exactly mentioned as 'metropolitan area' but it bears the same meaning in English as the metropolitan area itself, such as the 'Jabodetabek' which is the popular name for
Jakarta metropolitan area, the 'Gerbang Kertosusila' for
Surabaya metropolitan area, and so on. If you go to direct-translation, the Surabaya metropolitan area name would be translated as "The Gate of Kertosusila" in English for instance, but in fact, it doesn't referred to any "gate" at all. And by the way your personal contribution should be something that you kept for yourself, it can't be used as the base argument to deprecate my contribution here
WP:APR. Without you even said it, I appreciate your contribution guys. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:56, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I'll have to return this question to you, since you're the one translating Kawasan Strategis Nasional (kawasan = area, strategis = strategic, nasional = national) to Nusantara metropolitan area. And here's
my contribution on the Indonesian Wikipedia.--Regards,
Jeromi Mikhael
10:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Serious question, did you learnt Indonesian language? because someone who learnt Indonesian language and familiar with Indonesian things would understand directly, I even put the Indonesian words in my prior comment exactly like on the website to ease your effort. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- In
https://ikn.go.id/, no single mention of metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan.Even if we use search feature on that site, still nothing show up (
https://ikn.go.id/search?q=metropolitan). and it further convinced me that it is speculation
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
09:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Jeromi Mikhael: In
https://ikn.go.id/, the area of metropolitan (
Indonesian: Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN) will covered 256412 Ha which comprises the Nusantara (56180 Ha) as the core city (
Indonesian: Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)) + its surrounding (199962 Ha) as the part of the metropolitan area (
Indonesian: Kawasan Pengembangan IKN). And in
https://ikn.go.id/tentang-ikn, the metropolitan area are defined by three major regions namely Nusantara itself (as the core city), Samarinda, Balikpapan. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- It is clear that you didn't even review the article and try to look up to the references first, the information on the article is based on the offical website of Capital Region itself, the area that will covered as metropolitan and even what will be included as part of it is even clearly defined there. It is not presumption if the official government already declared and defined it, you can even see the bills and regulations on that website. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Because it simply did not exist and proved by
the lack of references. I have no issue on dedicated page for new capital such as
Nusantara (city) or
New Administrative Capital of Egypt as they have enough references. But, to have non-existent metropolitan page as this one. it is clearly speculation or presumptions per
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
06:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Ckfasdf: What do you mean by non-existent? The metropolitan area is even already prepared ways before the designation of Nusantara itself. Just because the Nusantara still under the development, it doesn't mean it could devalue the existence of its metropolitan area. Even the
New Administrative Capital of Egypt didn't even have any official name and pretty much in similar condition, why didn't you guys nominate it for deletion? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Merge to Nusantara (city), this place does not exist and there's no need for a separate article. Reywas92 Talk 15:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to Nusantara (city) for now, until the city physically exists. Bluesatellite ( talk) 23:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Nusantara (proposed city) per WP:CRYSTAL. No need to merge since the material that is worth preserving is already largely in the target article. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:41, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge to Nusantara (proposed city). Closing as "Merge" but whether there's any material at the former article that should be merged into Nusantara (proposed city) is a content question for interested editors to decide. I've left the page history visible to all. Ajpolino ( talk) 05:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Nusantara metropolitan area ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Speculative article about a proposed capital. No mention of this topic in media, demonstrated by the lack of references in the article (the linked further reading don't even have any mention about metropolitan area). Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 03:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Jeromi Mikhael: it is not speculation, both Nusantara and Nusantara metropolitan area has already officially announced by the official government of Indonesia, even the official website has already explained it all, similar topic also found such as the
New Administrative Capital for Egypt, and those capital didn't even have official name yet, but these Indonesian new capital already officially announced, you can even search about the official Indonesian bills in the official website regarding these matter. Thank you.
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
03:30, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ Mbis Saravon: There are few people I would trust more in the topic area of Indonesia than Jeromi. If he is bringing this to AfD, not only is he aware of what has been announced, he understands it does not yet merit this particular article. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:28, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ Sammi Brie: Hello, Wikipedia welcomed anyone to perform their contributions, including me for instance. Your personal thought about someone you favor on Wikipedia shouldn't be used to degrade and devalue my contribution in Wikipedia. I'm just trying to give my constructive contribution here. WP:NPC, WP:APR. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 05:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I agree with what Saravon said here. Just because I'm a longstanding Indonesian topic editor doesn't mean I'm right about anything. This AfD is just a quick assesment on the worthiness of an article. If the government announce something regarding a metropolitan, I would gladly withdraw this nomination. Since most of the consensus is in favor of merging, that means that the article is not going to be deleted, but instead redirected to somewhere else, with the content still being viewable in the primary article. I suggest Mbis Saravon to do the merging themselves in order to kept authorsip attribution. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 05:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ Jeromi Mikhael: Merging the Nusantara metropolitan area to Nusatara isn't the right thing to do either, because both represents different entity eventhough it is interconnected. In Indonesian system, the capital region are comprises the capital itself as the core city and also the metropolitan area, you can see the former capital Jakarta and Jakarta metropolitan area are two different thing, and also it's applied to all main cities in Indonesia such as Surabaya with its Surabaya metropolitan area, Bandung with its Bandung metropolitan area, Medan with its Medan metropolitan area, and so on. And anyways, thank you for your concern guys, I believe it is part of your good faith to avoid any vandalism on Wikipedia, but my intention here was nothing but to give constructive contributions, I hope you guys could welcome or accept me here as part of the Wikipedia community. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 05:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I understand, but here it is. The proposed capital haven't been finished yet, and we already have three articles related to the new capital (the proposal, the capital, and the metropolitan concept). I understand that in the future this will be built. Because this metropolitan concept is still just an imagination at its best, there is no design or even a physical one (just an analogy according to the website), so it is better to combine them for the time being. If there is a clear plan from the central government and the media has covered it, then we can start creating content. So far what you have written is factual and balanced and I appreciate your constructive contribution here. Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 05:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Once again, it is not "proposed", it is already "official", eventhough it is still under the development, it doesn't mean it's not official and not worthy to mention, the de facto capital of Indonesia is Nusantara according to the 2019 (and later renewed in early 2022) official bill. If you considered this project as "imagination", then explain me why some infrastructures already built there? It is already clear plan of government and the Indonesian media covered it, even the construction started since 2017 (if I'm not mistaken), in 2019 the President Joko Widodo a.k.a. Jokowi declared the official location of new capital that in 2022 "Nusantara" officially chosen as the new capital city name. Compared to similar article, the New Administrative Capital of Egypt didn't even have any official name yet it is allowed to exist in Wikipedia. And in Indonesian system, it is clear in Indonesia that capital city automatically will have the following metropolitan area. If you need to know more about Indonesian system, please kindly learn about it first. So instead of deleting the article or nominate it for deletion, please consider to put the Expand template on top of the article to engage contributors to give further improvements on article. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 06:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- We already have an article on the proposed capital. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 06:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- In Indonesian system, core city and metropolitan area are two different entity, you didn't read previous comment carefully? I even gave you examples of how capital system works in Indonesia. Jakarta ≠ Jakarta Raya, Bandung ≠ Bandung Raya, Surabaya ≠ Surabaya Raya, etc. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 07:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. — hueman1 ( talk • contributions) 04:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. — hueman1 ( talk • contributions) 04:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to Capital of Indonesia. Until there is more information and references, it is better to consolidate the information there. Hanif Al Husaini ( talk) 04:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: I think an article exists at
Nusantara (city). Maybe it's better to redirect this article there instead. —
hueman1 (
talk •
contributions)
04:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. I didn't notice that article before.
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk)
04:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @ HueMan1 and Hanif Al Husaini: Hello, both Nusantara and Nusantara metropolitan area are two different thing, in Indonesia the capital region system include the main capital city as the core area, and its surrounding area. Take example from Indonesian former capital Jakarta and Jakarta metropolitan area are two different thing with different purposes, it is also applied to another main cities in Indonesia such as Surabaya and Surabaya metropolitan area, Bandung and Bandung metropolitan area, Medan and Medan metropolitan area, and so on. So please before making any assumption and suggestion, please learn and understand the Indonesian system first. ( Mbis Saravon ( talk) 04:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I agree. I didn't notice that article before.
Hanif Al Husaini (
talk)
04:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to Nusantara (city). There is currently no metropolitan area to speak of, so it would only make sense to merge it to the planned city (which has not physically existed yet either). dwadieff ✉ 05:50, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
David Wadie Fisher-Freberg: The metropolitan area which will covered Nusantara (as the core city), Balikpapan, Samarinda, and some other parts of East Kalimantan is already exist, how come you said there is no metropolitan area to speak of? the only thing that still under development is the Nusantara itself as the capital city, but the surrounding areas are pretty much ready, so the "merge" option isn't quite make sense since these region is exist and already prepared since years ago. Furthermore, in Indonesian system, the core city and metropolitan area are two different entity that shouldn't be mixed because it has distinctive regulations. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- "the core city and metropolitan area are two different entity that shouldn't be mixed because it has distinctive regulations". Can you point to the specific Undang-Undang or Peraturan here? dwadieff ✉ 02:26, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
David Wadie Fisher-Freberg: The metropolitan area which will covered Nusantara (as the core city), Balikpapan, Samarinda, and some other parts of East Kalimantan is already exist, how come you said there is no metropolitan area to speak of? the only thing that still under development is the Nusantara itself as the capital city, but the surrounding areas are pretty much ready, so the "merge" option isn't quite make sense since these region is exist and already prepared since years ago. Furthermore, in Indonesian system, the core city and metropolitan area are two different entity that shouldn't be mixed because it has distinctive regulations. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Support Deletion. Non-existent metropolitan area. Even
Nusantara (city) itself still pretty much only "planned" city at this moment. Support the creation of this page only if the new city is officially start functioning and actually have the metropolitan area.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
06:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Ckfasdf: What do you mean by non-existent? The metropolitan area is even already prepared ways before the designation of Nusantara itself. Just because the Nusantara still under the development, it doesn't mean it could devalue the existence of its metropolitan area. Even the
New Administrative Capital of Egypt didn't even have any official name and pretty much in similar condition, why didn't you guys nominate it for deletion? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Because it simply did not exist and proved by
the lack of references. I have no issue on dedicated page for new capital such as
Nusantara (city) or
New Administrative Capital of Egypt as they have enough references. But, to have non-existent metropolitan page as this one. it is clearly speculation or presumptions per
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
06:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- It is clear that you didn't even review the article and try to look up to the references first, the information on the article is based on the offical website of Capital Region itself, the area that will covered as metropolitan and even what will be included as part of it is even clearly defined there. It is not presumption if the official government already declared and defined it, you can even see the bills and regulations on that website. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- @ Mbis Saravon: Please kindly point out the part in the web that says "Nusantara metropolitan area". Thank you. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 07:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- And the government hasn't provide any legal documents except for the bill there. --Regards, Jeromi Mikhael 07:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- on
Nusantara metropolitan area page, there is only one source of reference which is from
https://ikn.go.id/tentang-ikn. Even there, there is no mention on metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
07:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Jeromi Mikhael: In
https://ikn.go.id/, the area of metropolitan (
Indonesian: Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN) will covered 256412 Ha which comprises the Nusantara (56180 Ha) as the core city (
Indonesian: Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)) + its surrounding (199962 Ha) as the part of the metropolitan area (
Indonesian: Kawasan Pengembangan IKN). And in
https://ikn.go.id/tentang-ikn, the metropolitan area are defined by three major regions namely Nusantara itself (as the core city), Samarinda, Balikpapan. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- In
https://ikn.go.id/, no single mention of metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan.Even if we use search feature on that site, still nothing show up (
https://ikn.go.id/search?q=metropolitan). and it further convinced me that it is speculation
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
09:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Serious question, did you learnt Indonesian language? because someone who learnt Indonesian language and familiar with Indonesian things would understand directly, I even put the Indonesian words in my prior comment exactly like on the website to ease your effort. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I'll have to return this question to you, since you're the one translating Kawasan Strategis Nasional (kawasan = area, strategis = strategic, nasional = national) to Nusantara metropolitan area. And here's
my contribution on the Indonesian Wikipedia.--Regards,
Jeromi Mikhael
10:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- It seems that you're not so familiar with the Indonesian system, the Indonesian terminology didn't have to be exactly mentioned as 'metropolitan area' but it bears the same meaning in English as the metropolitan area itself, such as the 'Jabodetabek' which is the popular name for
Jakarta metropolitan area, the 'Gerbang Kertosusila' for
Surabaya metropolitan area, and so on. If you go to direct-translation, the Surabaya metropolitan area name would be translated as "The Gate of Kertosusila" in English for instance, but in fact, it doesn't referred to any "gate" at all. And by the way your personal contribution should be something that you kept for yourself, it can't be used as the base argument to deprecate my contribution here
WP:APR. Without you even said it, I appreciate your contribution guys. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:56, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Indonesian language actually has exact terminology for metropolitan area which is kawasan metropolitan as stipulated in article 1.26 of Law 26/2007 and article 17 of Law 11/2020. but there is no mention of either metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan in https://ikn.go.id/. So your claim is simply unsourced. Ckfasdf ( talk) 11:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Btw, you can not translate "Gerbang kertosusila" into English as "The Gate of Kertosusila". Because it is an acronym of Gresik–Bangkalan–Mojokerto–Surabaya–Sidoarjo–Lamongan and not refer to actual "Gate" / "Gerbang".
Ckfasdf (
talk)
11:08, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- May I ask you serious question, are you Indonesian who familiar with Indonesian capital naming system? and did you understand Indonesian language? I already gave you clue in my previous comments, and you can clearly find it on website. And did you just repeating my point? because that's exactly my point, even there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, the name can bears the same meaning as metropolitan area itself, please see another metropolitan areas of Indonesia so you could understand the pov. I wonder why it's so hard for you to grasp the information that I'm trying to deliver. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- See.. even you agree there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, and it was you and only yourself who translate/consider Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN/Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)/Kawasan Pengembangan IKN as "metropolitan area".
Ckfasdf (
talk)
11:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- So, according to your logic, Jabodetabek ≠
Jakarta metropolitan area, Medibangro ≠
Medan metropolitan area, Gerbangkertosusila ≠
Surabaya metropolitan area because it has no "metropolitan" word in it? is that how you really think? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Jabodetabek = Jakarta metropolitan area, Medibangro = Medan metropolitan area, Gerbangkertosusila = Surabaya metropolitan area, because there are references that said so, such as https://archive.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/uu11ee/uu11ee15.htm and http://pwk.lib.itb.ac.id/index.php/bibliografi/detail/7786. On the other hand, there is no single reference that mention anything about Nusantara metropolitan area. Ckfasdf ( talk) 11:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- So, according to your logic, Jabodetabek ≠
Jakarta metropolitan area, Medibangro ≠
Medan metropolitan area, Gerbangkertosusila ≠
Surabaya metropolitan area because it has no "metropolitan" word in it? is that how you really think? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- See.. even you agree there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, and it was you and only yourself who translate/consider Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN/Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)/Kawasan Pengembangan IKN as "metropolitan area".
Ckfasdf (
talk)
11:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- May I ask you serious question, are you Indonesian who familiar with Indonesian capital naming system? and did you understand Indonesian language? I already gave you clue in my previous comments, and you can clearly find it on website. And did you just repeating my point? because that's exactly my point, even there's no "metropolitan" word mentioned on the website, the name can bears the same meaning as metropolitan area itself, please see another metropolitan areas of Indonesia so you could understand the pov. I wonder why it's so hard for you to grasp the information that I'm trying to deliver. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
11:19, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- It seems that you're not so familiar with the Indonesian system, the Indonesian terminology didn't have to be exactly mentioned as 'metropolitan area' but it bears the same meaning in English as the metropolitan area itself, such as the 'Jabodetabek' which is the popular name for
Jakarta metropolitan area, the 'Gerbang Kertosusila' for
Surabaya metropolitan area, and so on. If you go to direct-translation, the Surabaya metropolitan area name would be translated as "The Gate of Kertosusila" in English for instance, but in fact, it doesn't referred to any "gate" at all. And by the way your personal contribution should be something that you kept for yourself, it can't be used as the base argument to deprecate my contribution here
WP:APR. Without you even said it, I appreciate your contribution guys. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:56, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- I'll have to return this question to you, since you're the one translating Kawasan Strategis Nasional (kawasan = area, strategis = strategic, nasional = national) to Nusantara metropolitan area. And here's
my contribution on the Indonesian Wikipedia.--Regards,
Jeromi Mikhael
10:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Serious question, did you learnt Indonesian language? because someone who learnt Indonesian language and familiar with Indonesian things would understand directly, I even put the Indonesian words in my prior comment exactly like on the website to ease your effort. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
10:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- In
https://ikn.go.id/, no single mention of metropolitan area or kawasan metropolitan.Even if we use search feature on that site, still nothing show up (
https://ikn.go.id/search?q=metropolitan). and it further convinced me that it is speculation
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
09:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Jeromi Mikhael: In
https://ikn.go.id/, the area of metropolitan (
Indonesian: Kawasan Strategis Nasional (KSN) IKN) will covered 256412 Ha which comprises the Nusantara (56180 Ha) as the core city (
Indonesian: Kawasan Ibu Kota Negara (IKN)) + its surrounding (199962 Ha) as the part of the metropolitan area (
Indonesian: Kawasan Pengembangan IKN). And in
https://ikn.go.id/tentang-ikn, the metropolitan area are defined by three major regions namely Nusantara itself (as the core city), Samarinda, Balikpapan. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- It is clear that you didn't even review the article and try to look up to the references first, the information on the article is based on the offical website of Capital Region itself, the area that will covered as metropolitan and even what will be included as part of it is even clearly defined there. It is not presumption if the official government already declared and defined it, you can even see the bills and regulations on that website. (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
07:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Because it simply did not exist and proved by
the lack of references. I have no issue on dedicated page for new capital such as
Nusantara (city) or
New Administrative Capital of Egypt as they have enough references. But, to have non-existent metropolitan page as this one. it is clearly speculation or presumptions per
WP:CRYSTALBALL.
Ckfasdf (
talk)
06:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- @
Ckfasdf: What do you mean by non-existent? The metropolitan area is even already prepared ways before the designation of Nusantara itself. Just because the Nusantara still under the development, it doesn't mean it could devalue the existence of its metropolitan area. Even the
New Administrative Capital of Egypt didn't even have any official name and pretty much in similar condition, why didn't you guys nominate it for deletion? (
Mbis Saravon (
talk)
06:44, 19 January 2022 (UTC))
- Merge to Nusantara (city), this place does not exist and there's no need for a separate article. Reywas92 Talk 15:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to Nusantara (city) for now, until the city physically exists. Bluesatellite ( talk) 23:38, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Nusantara (proposed city) per WP:CRYSTAL. No need to merge since the material that is worth preserving is already largely in the target article. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:41, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.