- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. While mass shootings in the US are regrettably a dime a dozen and it is as yet unclear whether this will get sustained coverage (unlikely in my opinion) There is clear consensus to "keep" this article. No prejudice to re-nomination should it become evident that there is no ongoing coverage. Randykitty ( talk) 16:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Normandale Park shooting
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- Normandale Park shooting ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:EVENT notability does not appear supported. There was an initial burst of national coverage (and The Guardian) in February 2022, but this has not developed into a high-profile WP:NCRIME, and there appears to be no effect with a significant or widespread impact supported by in-depth coverage. There also appears to have been some sensational coverage, and there are WP:BLPCRIME issues that even if resolved, do not seem to add support for notability due to the local coverage of a low-profile criminal case. Beccaynr ( talk) 04:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Events, and Oregon. Beccaynr ( talk) 04:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- @
Beccaynr: What are your thoughts on merging/moving the content to
Normandale Park? ---
Another Believer (
Talk) 04:36, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think it seems
WP:UNDUE in that article, because the coverage does not appear to be about the park, it is about a mass shooting that happened near the park. A redirect to
List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022, where it is already listed, seems more appropriate.
Beccaynr (
talk) 04:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- The redirect seems fine. The shooter was killed, I don't really know what more they can publish about it; there won't be a trial. No long-term effects from what I can see. It got lost in the news cycle and soon forgotten about. Do we really need an article for every shooting in the USA?
Oaktree b (
talk) 15:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- The alleged shooter was injured, and there is a criminal case that has received some periodic local coverage, but the case appears to be low-profile and without a significant or widespread impact. While some United States mass shootings may be notable based on available coverage, notability for a standalone article for this event does not appear supported by the WP:EVENT guideline. Beccaynr ( talk) 15:54, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- The redirect seems fine. The shooter was killed, I don't really know what more they can publish about it; there won't be a trial. No long-term effects from what I can see. It got lost in the news cycle and soon forgotten about. Do we really need an article for every shooting in the USA?
Oaktree b (
talk) 15:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think it seems
WP:UNDUE in that article, because the coverage does not appear to be about the park, it is about a mass shooting that happened near the park. A redirect to
List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022, where it is already listed, seems more appropriate.
Beccaynr (
talk) 04:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect per Beccaynr. One dead and five injured. Commonplace, sadly, in the 21st century US. Cullen328 ( talk) 19:23, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Strong keep - precedent shows that mass shootings with with any fatality meet WP's notability criteria. It's not a daily occurrence and there are plenty of articles about events that rarely, if ever receive coverage these days. Sourcing is also adequate. Knightoftheswords281 ( talk) 06:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The incident made the national news (Wash Post, NY Times) and occurred during a protest against police violence making it atypical. There is sufficient non-local coverage to demonstrate notability.
Patapsco913 (
talk) 23:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- According to WaPo on Feb. 20, 2022, the shooting occurred "near the site of a demonstration planned to protest police violence". There was a brief flurry of national attention, which does not appear to have continued beyond The Guardian report on Feb. 27, 2022 about these types of events generally, that also includes corrections to initial statements from police published in the early sensational reporting, as well as a range of allegations about the suspect. Beccaynr ( talk) 00:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep by the reason explained by @Knightoftheswords281 --
MaeseLeon (
talk) 18:37, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- According to List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022, e.g. on January 1, there were eight mass shootings in the US that day, four on January 9, three on January 19 and January 29, etc. The coverage appears to support a redirect to where this event is already mentioned, and no compelling reason has been offered to ignore guidelines and policy in response to the guideline and policy-based reasons (e.g. WP:NOTNEWS, the policy basis for the WP:EVENT guideline, and WP:BLP) to support a deletion/redirect; with regard to the vague wave at 'precedent', the list article suggested as a redirect target seems to demonstrate support for inclusion in that list, not a standalone article, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not typically considered strong support. Beccaynr ( talk) 19:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep as this was a notable mass shooting that interrupted a peaceful racial justice protest. Minnemeeples ( talk) 21:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. It can certainly be argued it's just another shooting, WP:NOTNEWS, but there are some somewhat interesting bits in this case and in the initial communication afterwards. There was somewhat wide/deep coverage, though the time period could be argued- but it's common for crime stories to become very quiet before a trial. I'm happy to revisit my opinion on "but what about no ongoing coverage" after that. tedder ( talk) 00:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022. This is not an event that has impact beyond the event itself. As to the argument that it made national news - have you looked at how much content there is in every issue of the NY Times and Washington Post? National news is not = encyclopedic. It has to be more than news, and this isn't. Lamona ( talk) 05:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep for now WP:NORUSH and we will see what comes Lightburst ( talk) 01:26, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:48, 9 February 2023 (UTC)- Weak Keep. This was making news as recently as about a month ago. Here are some sources that show news coverage over a period of time, which I think is the important thing. I think criminal proceedings have not concluded, so I think this will continue to make news:
- https://www.opb.org/article/2022/06/15/fbi-knew-alleged-shooter-at-portlands-normandale-park-was-possible-threat-before-fatal-protest-shooting/
- https://www.opb.org/article/2022/03/24/accused-shooter-at-portland-normandale-park-protest-pleads-not-guilty/
- https://heavy.com/news/benjamin-jeffrey-smith-polybun/ (late December 2022)
- This is a "Weak" !vote because:
- the coverage is not a lot, especially recently, and
- the most recent is a tabloid in style,
- About a year has passed since the event, so I am not sure I can say WP:SUSTAINED is met without more time, and without better recent source. But, I think this article is still is overall a net positive to the encyclopaedia. CT55555( talk) 02:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Keep. This was making news as recently as about a month ago. Here are some sources that show news coverage over a period of time, which I think is the important thing. I think criminal proceedings have not concluded, so I think this will continue to make news:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. While mass shootings in the US are regrettably a dime a dozen and it is as yet unclear whether this will get sustained coverage (unlikely in my opinion) There is clear consensus to "keep" this article. No prejudice to re-nomination should it become evident that there is no ongoing coverage. Randykitty ( talk) 16:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Normandale Park shooting
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Normandale Park shooting ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
WP:EVENT notability does not appear supported. There was an initial burst of national coverage (and The Guardian) in February 2022, but this has not developed into a high-profile WP:NCRIME, and there appears to be no effect with a significant or widespread impact supported by in-depth coverage. There also appears to have been some sensational coverage, and there are WP:BLPCRIME issues that even if resolved, do not seem to add support for notability due to the local coverage of a low-profile criminal case. Beccaynr ( talk) 04:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, Events, and Oregon. Beccaynr ( talk) 04:31, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- @
Beccaynr: What are your thoughts on merging/moving the content to
Normandale Park? ---
Another Believer (
Talk) 04:36, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think it seems
WP:UNDUE in that article, because the coverage does not appear to be about the park, it is about a mass shooting that happened near the park. A redirect to
List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022, where it is already listed, seems more appropriate.
Beccaynr (
talk) 04:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- The redirect seems fine. The shooter was killed, I don't really know what more they can publish about it; there won't be a trial. No long-term effects from what I can see. It got lost in the news cycle and soon forgotten about. Do we really need an article for every shooting in the USA?
Oaktree b (
talk) 15:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- The alleged shooter was injured, and there is a criminal case that has received some periodic local coverage, but the case appears to be low-profile and without a significant or widespread impact. While some United States mass shootings may be notable based on available coverage, notability for a standalone article for this event does not appear supported by the WP:EVENT guideline. Beccaynr ( talk) 15:54, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- The redirect seems fine. The shooter was killed, I don't really know what more they can publish about it; there won't be a trial. No long-term effects from what I can see. It got lost in the news cycle and soon forgotten about. Do we really need an article for every shooting in the USA?
Oaktree b (
talk) 15:16, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- I think it seems
WP:UNDUE in that article, because the coverage does not appear to be about the park, it is about a mass shooting that happened near the park. A redirect to
List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022, where it is already listed, seems more appropriate.
Beccaynr (
talk) 04:47, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect per Beccaynr. One dead and five injured. Commonplace, sadly, in the 21st century US. Cullen328 ( talk) 19:23, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
- Strong keep - precedent shows that mass shootings with with any fatality meet WP's notability criteria. It's not a daily occurrence and there are plenty of articles about events that rarely, if ever receive coverage these days. Sourcing is also adequate. Knightoftheswords281 ( talk) 06:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep The incident made the national news (Wash Post, NY Times) and occurred during a protest against police violence making it atypical. There is sufficient non-local coverage to demonstrate notability.
Patapsco913 (
talk) 23:41, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
- According to WaPo on Feb. 20, 2022, the shooting occurred "near the site of a demonstration planned to protest police violence". There was a brief flurry of national attention, which does not appear to have continued beyond The Guardian report on Feb. 27, 2022 about these types of events generally, that also includes corrections to initial statements from police published in the early sensational reporting, as well as a range of allegations about the suspect. Beccaynr ( talk) 00:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep by the reason explained by @Knightoftheswords281 --
MaeseLeon (
talk) 18:37, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- According to List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022, e.g. on January 1, there were eight mass shootings in the US that day, four on January 9, three on January 19 and January 29, etc. The coverage appears to support a redirect to where this event is already mentioned, and no compelling reason has been offered to ignore guidelines and policy in response to the guideline and policy-based reasons (e.g. WP:NOTNEWS, the policy basis for the WP:EVENT guideline, and WP:BLP) to support a deletion/redirect; with regard to the vague wave at 'precedent', the list article suggested as a redirect target seems to demonstrate support for inclusion in that list, not a standalone article, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not typically considered strong support. Beccaynr ( talk) 19:00, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep as this was a notable mass shooting that interrupted a peaceful racial justice protest. Minnemeeples ( talk) 21:06, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. It can certainly be argued it's just another shooting, WP:NOTNEWS, but there are some somewhat interesting bits in this case and in the initial communication afterwards. There was somewhat wide/deep coverage, though the time period could be argued- but it's common for crime stories to become very quiet before a trial. I'm happy to revisit my opinion on "but what about no ongoing coverage" after that. tedder ( talk) 00:23, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022. This is not an event that has impact beyond the event itself. As to the argument that it made national news - have you looked at how much content there is in every issue of the NY Times and Washington Post? National news is not = encyclopedic. It has to be more than news, and this isn't. Lamona ( talk) 05:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep for now WP:NORUSH and we will see what comes Lightburst ( talk) 01:26, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:48, 9 February 2023 (UTC)- Weak Keep. This was making news as recently as about a month ago. Here are some sources that show news coverage over a period of time, which I think is the important thing. I think criminal proceedings have not concluded, so I think this will continue to make news:
- https://www.opb.org/article/2022/06/15/fbi-knew-alleged-shooter-at-portlands-normandale-park-was-possible-threat-before-fatal-protest-shooting/
- https://www.opb.org/article/2022/03/24/accused-shooter-at-portland-normandale-park-protest-pleads-not-guilty/
- https://heavy.com/news/benjamin-jeffrey-smith-polybun/ (late December 2022)
- This is a "Weak" !vote because:
- the coverage is not a lot, especially recently, and
- the most recent is a tabloid in style,
- About a year has passed since the event, so I am not sure I can say WP:SUSTAINED is met without more time, and without better recent source. But, I think this article is still is overall a net positive to the encyclopaedia. CT55555( talk) 02:25, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Weak Keep. This was making news as recently as about a month ago. Here are some sources that show news coverage over a period of time, which I think is the important thing. I think criminal proceedings have not concluded, so I think this will continue to make news:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.