- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) –– FormalDude (talk) 04:14, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
National Alfonsinist Movement
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- National Alfonsinist Movement ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
In a nutshell: this is an article about a political party that does not exist.
Contrary to the claims of the article, Moreau, Lopez, and Santoro did not leave the UCR to create this "Movimiento Nacional Alfonsinista" (MNA) party and then add this party to the larger coalition of the Front for Victory, now Frente de Todos. They simply joined that coalition personally. This "Movimiento Nacional Alfonsinista" is just a slogan, a theatrical act or whatever, but not a political party. All legally recognized political parties in Argentina as of March 31, 2022 are listed here: the MNA is not there. This news report details all the minor parties that belong to the Frente de Todos coalition when it was registered for the 2021 elections: again, the MNA is not there. Reference 4 ( this one) claims that it was a founding party of the 2017 "Citizen Unity" coalition; but again, the reference itself lists all such parties and not the MNA. Reference 2 is only about Moreau being ready to give a speech somewhere. And no, the article in Wikipedia in Spanish is a bit longer but still lacks any reference that proves that this political party exists as such. Their reference 3 even lists the number of people affiliated to it... with a reference that makes no mention of the MNA. Cambalachero ( talk) 18:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Argentina. Cambalachero ( talk) 18:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - no coherent rationale for deletion presented. It might be that the MNA didn't form a formalized organization, but informally structured movements can also warrant Wikipedia articles. From a quick search, we find plenty mentions of this movement - https://quedigital.com.ar/politica/con-macri-no-volvimos-los-90-sino-al-24-de-marzo-de-1976/ , https://www.diarioepoca.com/592328-el-alfonsinismo-y-forja-apuntan-a-una-amplia-construccion-progresista , etc. -- Soman ( talk) 21:04, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 23:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Again, this is not a "movement" (even if it claims so in the name), but just a tag for Leopoldo Moreau's modest political activities. It has zero achievements or significance of its own. Moreau himself is notable, but notability is not inherited.
Cambalachero (
talk) 02:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the argument isn't convincing. See for example here:
https://www.facebook.com/mnaforjamdp , a local
Mar del Plata branch of MNA, with photos of members of MNA with MNA flags and MNA t-shirts. The argument that MNA wouldn't exist as a movement doesn't seem to hold up. Here a photo of the Argentine president holding up a MNA t-shirt, an at MNA event:
https://www.yrigoyen.com.ar/los-votos-del-alfonsinismo-estuvieron-en-el-54-por-ciento-de-cristina-y-se-mantienen-en-unidad-ciudadana/ etc, etc --
Soman (
talk) 13:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- That's the old trick of the photo of a multitude taken from a very close angle, so that nobody can notice that they are not really a multitude but just 20 guys. A bus stop during rush hour gets more people than that. Also, Facebook, anyone can make a facebook page. Also, no activity since 2019? In any case, the point is that although it may be correct that a political movement like Peronism or Chavism does not need to be formally registered as a party to be notable, here we are talking about a "movement" without enough people to completely fill a studio, let alone have any actual meaningful relevance for national politics that can be credited to them and not to the bigger parties Moreau has been in. As for the Yrigoyen page, that's an interview at a partisan page that is little more than a blog. Moreau is notable, but not because of such pages. And of course that Cristina Kirchner would take a photo with their T-Shirt, politicians running for office just love to do this stunts all the time. Cambalachero ( talk) 14:26, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the argument isn't convincing. See for example here:
https://www.facebook.com/mnaforjamdp , a local
Mar del Plata branch of MNA, with photos of members of MNA with MNA flags and MNA t-shirts. The argument that MNA wouldn't exist as a movement doesn't seem to hold up. Here a photo of the Argentine president holding up a MNA t-shirt, an at MNA event:
https://www.yrigoyen.com.ar/los-votos-del-alfonsinismo-estuvieron-en-el-54-por-ciento-de-cristina-y-se-mantienen-en-unidad-ciudadana/ etc, etc --
Soman (
talk) 13:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Again, this is not a "movement" (even if it claims so in the name), but just a tag for Leopoldo Moreau's modest political activities. It has zero achievements or significance of its own. Moreau himself is notable, but notability is not inherited.
Cambalachero (
talk) 02:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Keep While I accept the nomination's statement that this movement is largely a personal vehicle for Moreau, I reject the view that the movement is not notable for that reason. The subject has received multiple counts of independent national coverage ( e.g.) and is a feature of recent Argentine politics. The nomination's rationale that movement acting as personal vehicles are non-notable ignores the significant contribution and relevance of such groups to democracies globally. Practically half of Ukraine's political parties could be deemed non-notable by the same logic. Acceptance of relevance is not the same as moral acceptance. SFB 18:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) –– FormalDude (talk) 04:14, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
National Alfonsinist Movement
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- National Alfonsinist Movement ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
In a nutshell: this is an article about a political party that does not exist.
Contrary to the claims of the article, Moreau, Lopez, and Santoro did not leave the UCR to create this "Movimiento Nacional Alfonsinista" (MNA) party and then add this party to the larger coalition of the Front for Victory, now Frente de Todos. They simply joined that coalition personally. This "Movimiento Nacional Alfonsinista" is just a slogan, a theatrical act or whatever, but not a political party. All legally recognized political parties in Argentina as of March 31, 2022 are listed here: the MNA is not there. This news report details all the minor parties that belong to the Frente de Todos coalition when it was registered for the 2021 elections: again, the MNA is not there. Reference 4 ( this one) claims that it was a founding party of the 2017 "Citizen Unity" coalition; but again, the reference itself lists all such parties and not the MNA. Reference 2 is only about Moreau being ready to give a speech somewhere. And no, the article in Wikipedia in Spanish is a bit longer but still lacks any reference that proves that this political party exists as such. Their reference 3 even lists the number of people affiliated to it... with a reference that makes no mention of the MNA. Cambalachero ( talk) 18:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Argentina. Cambalachero ( talk) 18:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
- Keep - no coherent rationale for deletion presented. It might be that the MNA didn't form a formalized organization, but informally structured movements can also warrant Wikipedia articles. From a quick search, we find plenty mentions of this movement - https://quedigital.com.ar/politica/con-macri-no-volvimos-los-90-sino-al-24-de-marzo-de-1976/ , https://www.diarioepoca.com/592328-el-alfonsinismo-y-forja-apuntan-a-una-amplia-construccion-progresista , etc. -- Soman ( talk) 21:04, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗ plicit 23:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
- Again, this is not a "movement" (even if it claims so in the name), but just a tag for Leopoldo Moreau's modest political activities. It has zero achievements or significance of its own. Moreau himself is notable, but notability is not inherited.
Cambalachero (
talk) 02:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the argument isn't convincing. See for example here:
https://www.facebook.com/mnaforjamdp , a local
Mar del Plata branch of MNA, with photos of members of MNA with MNA flags and MNA t-shirts. The argument that MNA wouldn't exist as a movement doesn't seem to hold up. Here a photo of the Argentine president holding up a MNA t-shirt, an at MNA event:
https://www.yrigoyen.com.ar/los-votos-del-alfonsinismo-estuvieron-en-el-54-por-ciento-de-cristina-y-se-mantienen-en-unidad-ciudadana/ etc, etc --
Soman (
talk) 13:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- That's the old trick of the photo of a multitude taken from a very close angle, so that nobody can notice that they are not really a multitude but just 20 guys. A bus stop during rush hour gets more people than that. Also, Facebook, anyone can make a facebook page. Also, no activity since 2019? In any case, the point is that although it may be correct that a political movement like Peronism or Chavism does not need to be formally registered as a party to be notable, here we are talking about a "movement" without enough people to completely fill a studio, let alone have any actual meaningful relevance for national politics that can be credited to them and not to the bigger parties Moreau has been in. As for the Yrigoyen page, that's an interview at a partisan page that is little more than a blog. Moreau is notable, but not because of such pages. And of course that Cristina Kirchner would take a photo with their T-Shirt, politicians running for office just love to do this stunts all the time. Cambalachero ( talk) 14:26, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, but the argument isn't convincing. See for example here:
https://www.facebook.com/mnaforjamdp , a local
Mar del Plata branch of MNA, with photos of members of MNA with MNA flags and MNA t-shirts. The argument that MNA wouldn't exist as a movement doesn't seem to hold up. Here a photo of the Argentine president holding up a MNA t-shirt, an at MNA event:
https://www.yrigoyen.com.ar/los-votos-del-alfonsinismo-estuvieron-en-el-54-por-ciento-de-cristina-y-se-mantienen-en-unidad-ciudadana/ etc, etc --
Soman (
talk) 13:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Again, this is not a "movement" (even if it claims so in the name), but just a tag for Leopoldo Moreau's modest political activities. It has zero achievements or significance of its own. Moreau himself is notable, but notability is not inherited.
Cambalachero (
talk) 02:40, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
- Keep While I accept the nomination's statement that this movement is largely a personal vehicle for Moreau, I reject the view that the movement is not notable for that reason. The subject has received multiple counts of independent national coverage ( e.g.) and is a feature of recent Argentine politics. The nomination's rationale that movement acting as personal vehicles are non-notable ignores the significant contribution and relevance of such groups to democracies globally. Practically half of Ukraine's political parties could be deemed non-notable by the same logic. Acceptance of relevance is not the same as moral acceptance. SFB 18:38, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.