The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is not a particular consensus as to whether this article should exist in its current form, but there is similarly no consensus to remove it. Several editors have suggested renaming the article to broaden its scope, but this is a discussion which can take place outside AfD.
SeraphimbladeTalk to me03:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete – Michalis Katsouris is not a notable individual (
Michalis Katsouris redirects to the article up for deletion), and this is not a notable incident. It is unfortunate that he was killed during a sports riot, but it is not terribly uncommon. Concur with nom that this seems
WP:SENSATIONAL. —
Jkudlick ⚓
(talk)00:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and refactor – I am striking my previous !vote to concur with expanding the article's scope to cover the riot as a whole rather than focusing on the murder of a single non-notable individual. —
Jkudlick ⚓
(talk)15:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep - Comments Nominator is too focused on the title and not the whole picture, the title of the article and a redirect of the current title needs to be addressed. The basis of the article is okay, but in essence the focus has been taken away from the hooligan event to which the murder happened. This is an imbedded event inside an already greater event in Greek football history. I suggest that this will need to be partially rewritten and examined. I don't think a TNT is in order. A title rename to something like August 2023 Nea Filadelfeia hooligan riots and expand into that. Regards.
Govvy (
talk)
10:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)reply
I put this up for deletion precisely because I could not determine its notability owing to the writing and the bizarre sourcing. I would be thrilled if cleanup resulted in an article that was kept, but the article as written looked very nearly like a bizarre political screed to this poor, uninitiated reader of articles about soccer riots.
jps (
talk)
12:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to broaden the scope to the riots. Like most murders, this one is not notable, but the riots might be. We should also wipe most of the "reactions" section, which as usual has attracted an indiscriminate collection of statements.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
04:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. Soccer riots, even those where people get killed, are unfortunately nothing out of the ordinary. And as this only happened a few weeks ago, there's no way of knowing whether there will be sustained coverage my hunch is "no"). Also,
WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. --
Randykitty (
talk)
12:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)reply
And that is just a collection of the riots in England. What you call NOTNEWS and not sustained coverage is completely wrong. Because if you analyse the events we will see there is sustained coverage and it's still on going. These riots have in fact result in the Greek people persecuting Croatians further from the event, but related too.
Govvy (
talk)
14:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Forgive me for not being impressed with 3 weeks of coverage, that's not really what "sustained" means. And your template more or less makes my point by listing notable riots, but few (or even none) soccer-related riots. --
Randykitty (
talk)
21:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete – questionable encyclopedical notability. But even if meeting standards for notability, language isn't unbiased and the article is written tendentiously. Motifs are still unclear and some information are media speculations.--
Mudroslov (
talk)
20:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Elements like renaming or editorial improvements can happen if it is decided to Keep this article. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk!19:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment it would be nice if one of the people who commented here would show us what an article that focused on the riot would look like in comparison to this current piece. I tried to write one myself, but found a lot of the sources were difficult to use in light of
verifying what actually happened (there appear to be contradictory stories in some of the sources, for example). This is far outside my wheelhouse, so I'm not sure if my inability to figure out how to write about this is due to my inexperience or due to systemic issues that mean it is impossible to write such an article. Oh, and if there could be consensus for what the renamed article should be, that would be welcome too. I see one suggestion above, but it is not clear to me if the other !voters like that name (I must admit calling something a "hooligan riot" doesn't pass the knee-jerk
WP:NPOV test in my mind, but if that's what these things are called, that's what they're called).
jps (
talk)
15:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is not a particular consensus as to whether this article should exist in its current form, but there is similarly no consensus to remove it. Several editors have suggested renaming the article to broaden its scope, but this is a discussion which can take place outside AfD.
SeraphimbladeTalk to me03:07, 14 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete – Michalis Katsouris is not a notable individual (
Michalis Katsouris redirects to the article up for deletion), and this is not a notable incident. It is unfortunate that he was killed during a sports riot, but it is not terribly uncommon. Concur with nom that this seems
WP:SENSATIONAL. —
Jkudlick ⚓
(talk)00:47, 31 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename and refactor – I am striking my previous !vote to concur with expanding the article's scope to cover the riot as a whole rather than focusing on the murder of a single non-notable individual. —
Jkudlick ⚓
(talk)15:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Keep - Comments Nominator is too focused on the title and not the whole picture, the title of the article and a redirect of the current title needs to be addressed. The basis of the article is okay, but in essence the focus has been taken away from the hooligan event to which the murder happened. This is an imbedded event inside an already greater event in Greek football history. I suggest that this will need to be partially rewritten and examined. I don't think a TNT is in order. A title rename to something like August 2023 Nea Filadelfeia hooligan riots and expand into that. Regards.
Govvy (
talk)
10:08, 31 August 2023 (UTC)reply
I put this up for deletion precisely because I could not determine its notability owing to the writing and the bizarre sourcing. I would be thrilled if cleanup resulted in an article that was kept, but the article as written looked very nearly like a bizarre political screed to this poor, uninitiated reader of articles about soccer riots.
jps (
talk)
12:25, 31 August 2023 (UTC)reply
Rename to broaden the scope to the riots. Like most murders, this one is not notable, but the riots might be. We should also wipe most of the "reactions" section, which as usual has attracted an indiscriminate collection of statements.
Thebiguglyalien (
talk)
04:36, 1 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete. Soccer riots, even those where people get killed, are unfortunately nothing out of the ordinary. And as this only happened a few weeks ago, there's no way of knowing whether there will be sustained coverage my hunch is "no"). Also,
WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. --
Randykitty (
talk)
12:44, 1 September 2023 (UTC)reply
And that is just a collection of the riots in England. What you call NOTNEWS and not sustained coverage is completely wrong. Because if you analyse the events we will see there is sustained coverage and it's still on going. These riots have in fact result in the Greek people persecuting Croatians further from the event, but related too.
Govvy (
talk)
14:19, 1 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Forgive me for not being impressed with 3 weeks of coverage, that's not really what "sustained" means. And your template more or less makes my point by listing notable riots, but few (or even none) soccer-related riots. --
Randykitty (
talk)
21:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Delete – questionable encyclopedical notability. But even if meeting standards for notability, language isn't unbiased and the article is written tendentiously. Motifs are still unclear and some information are media speculations.--
Mudroslov (
talk)
20:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Elements like renaming or editorial improvements can happen if it is decided to Keep this article. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, LizRead!Talk!19:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment it would be nice if one of the people who commented here would show us what an article that focused on the riot would look like in comparison to this current piece. I tried to write one myself, but found a lot of the sources were difficult to use in light of
verifying what actually happened (there appear to be contradictory stories in some of the sources, for example). This is far outside my wheelhouse, so I'm not sure if my inability to figure out how to write about this is due to my inexperience or due to systemic issues that mean it is impossible to write such an article. Oh, and if there could be consensus for what the renamed article should be, that would be welcome too. I see one suggestion above, but it is not clear to me if the other !voters like that name (I must admit calling something a "hooligan riot" doesn't pass the knee-jerk
WP:NPOV test in my mind, but if that's what these things are called, that's what they're called).
jps (
talk)
15:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.