- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Tone 18:33, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Murder of Andrew Harper
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Fails WP:1E Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 01:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:08, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
CommentKeep for now - This clearly DOES NOT fail WP:1E since it is about an event. Even if it did, WP:1E IS NOT a stand-alone WP:DELREASON, but instead a reason to rename/redirect/merge to an article about the event instead of the person.
- That said I’ve got some WP:too soon concerns about this page, though on the other hand coverage may well run on for months in reliable sources. Police officers are rarely killed in the line of duty in the UK so MAYBE notable on that ground. I need to think about this and see what others say. FOARP ( talk) 07:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC) EDIT: I'm swayed by User:Jake Brockman's point about WP:10YT: it is highly likely that this will still be talked about ten years from now and as such it should be kept for now. FOARP ( talk) 17:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep and improve - as FOARP notes, the murder of a police officer is quite rare in the United Kingdom, and it's been publicly commented on by senior government officials including the Prime Minister. It's had wide national coverage in RS, and meets WP:NCRIME. Tracy Von Doom ( talk) 07:49, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I agree with FOARP. 1E strictly does not apply as the article is (probably) about the event, not the person. The title implies wider coverage of the aftermath, trial, impact, etc. WP:NEVENT should be looked at. As the "event" is fairly recent, it is as of yet unclear if there will be a lasting effect or WP:PERSISTENCE, so again I agree that this may be TOOSOON. I like to look at WP:10YT as "tie breaker" and would suspect there will still be residual reporting in years to come given how rare killings of police officers are and (as of yet) lack of clarity how he actually died (i.e. by the suspect's impact or by impact with the chasing police car.) which is likely to create further coverage. pseudonym Jake Brockman talk 07:59, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Strong KeepThis event has attracted widespread media attention in the United Kingdom, these articles about the murder of police officers in the UK do not fail WP:1E (which is also not a sole standalone justification for deletion), especially where there has been significant attention from the media. If you go on to the UK BBC news RIGHT NOW there are several articles on the front page regarding this event. This is likely to attract media coverage for quite a while. Theprussian ( talk) 10:41, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. WP:1E does not apply: it relates only to biographies and not to events.
- As already noted, deaths of police officers on duty in UK are rare, and are very likely to be notable. In List of British police officers killed in the line of duty, I count 27 since 2000, including at least 8 where they was no foul play. The Guardian, which is thoroughly WP:RS, has already published 11 articles about this incident. Both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have commented on the event.
- Death of Ged Walker had several similarities to that of Andrew Walker. It happened in 2003; the BBC published follow-up articlee in 2004 and 2005.
- I would prefer a more neutral title, namely Death of Andrew Harper. Until there is an inquest and trial, calling the incident murder is speculation. Narky Blert ( talk) 13:37, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
-
Keep.
WP:1E is for biographies and not events. The article is about a murder that has just happened, and there is not much you can say yet. However, as more information does become available, the article will become larger. Therefore I vote keep.--
Wyatt2049 | (
talk) 14:12, 24 August 2019 (UTC) - Keep - There's enough info out there to indicate what's to follow, keeping in mind it's still recent. The article really needs to be improved though. Karl Twist ( talk) 14:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I renamed the article to Killing of Andrew Harper per WP:BLP as court proceeding are still in progress and it is sub judice in the UK - murder has not been proven. -- DeFacto ( talk). 20:54, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete ("onya coola, going against this afd's consensus":)) as WP:NOTNEWS and does not meet WP:EVENT, although tragic and newsworthy, due to low numbers of British police killed in line of duty (although i see that not all at List of British police officers killed in the line of duty have articles), and having been run over twice, this does not mean that an article is required. i note that a number of "keepers" above have suggested a "wait and see", interesting idea (i like mention of WP:10YT:)) but this appears to be contrary to WP:EVENTCRITERIA that emphasises event endurance now ie. "have enduring historical significance", "have a significant lasting effect", "if also re-analyzed afterwards", "4.Routine kinds of news events (including most crimes, ... usually not notable unless something further gives them additional enduring significance.", so WP:TOOSOON is also probably relevant. i wouldn't oppose an addition to the hatnote at Andrew Harper directing wikireaders to List of British police officers killed in the line of duty. Coolabahapple ( talk) 02:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- As it says in
WP:LASTING, "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." (my emphasis). Basically, we don't need to delete an article simply because it relates to a recent event.
FOARP (
talk) 07:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST is in Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Narky Blert ( talk) 19:15, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- As it says in
WP:LASTING, "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." (my emphasis). Basically, we don't need to delete an article simply because it relates to a recent event.
FOARP (
talk) 07:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Tone 18:33, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Murder of Andrew Harper
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Murder of Andrew Harper ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails WP:1E Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 01:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:08, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
CommentKeep for now - This clearly DOES NOT fail WP:1E since it is about an event. Even if it did, WP:1E IS NOT a stand-alone WP:DELREASON, but instead a reason to rename/redirect/merge to an article about the event instead of the person.
- That said I’ve got some WP:too soon concerns about this page, though on the other hand coverage may well run on for months in reliable sources. Police officers are rarely killed in the line of duty in the UK so MAYBE notable on that ground. I need to think about this and see what others say. FOARP ( talk) 07:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC) EDIT: I'm swayed by User:Jake Brockman's point about WP:10YT: it is highly likely that this will still be talked about ten years from now and as such it should be kept for now. FOARP ( talk) 17:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep and improve - as FOARP notes, the murder of a police officer is quite rare in the United Kingdom, and it's been publicly commented on by senior government officials including the Prime Minister. It's had wide national coverage in RS, and meets WP:NCRIME. Tracy Von Doom ( talk) 07:49, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I agree with FOARP. 1E strictly does not apply as the article is (probably) about the event, not the person. The title implies wider coverage of the aftermath, trial, impact, etc. WP:NEVENT should be looked at. As the "event" is fairly recent, it is as of yet unclear if there will be a lasting effect or WP:PERSISTENCE, so again I agree that this may be TOOSOON. I like to look at WP:10YT as "tie breaker" and would suspect there will still be residual reporting in years to come given how rare killings of police officers are and (as of yet) lack of clarity how he actually died (i.e. by the suspect's impact or by impact with the chasing police car.) which is likely to create further coverage. pseudonym Jake Brockman talk 07:59, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Strong KeepThis event has attracted widespread media attention in the United Kingdom, these articles about the murder of police officers in the UK do not fail WP:1E (which is also not a sole standalone justification for deletion), especially where there has been significant attention from the media. If you go on to the UK BBC news RIGHT NOW there are several articles on the front page regarding this event. This is likely to attract media coverage for quite a while. Theprussian ( talk) 10:41, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. WP:1E does not apply: it relates only to biographies and not to events.
- As already noted, deaths of police officers on duty in UK are rare, and are very likely to be notable. In List of British police officers killed in the line of duty, I count 27 since 2000, including at least 8 where they was no foul play. The Guardian, which is thoroughly WP:RS, has already published 11 articles about this incident. Both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have commented on the event.
- Death of Ged Walker had several similarities to that of Andrew Walker. It happened in 2003; the BBC published follow-up articlee in 2004 and 2005.
- I would prefer a more neutral title, namely Death of Andrew Harper. Until there is an inquest and trial, calling the incident murder is speculation. Narky Blert ( talk) 13:37, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
-
Keep.
WP:1E is for biographies and not events. The article is about a murder that has just happened, and there is not much you can say yet. However, as more information does become available, the article will become larger. Therefore I vote keep.--
Wyatt2049 | (
talk) 14:12, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - There's enough info out there to indicate what's to follow, keeping in mind it's still recent. The article really needs to be improved though. Karl Twist ( talk) 14:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I renamed the article to Killing of Andrew Harper per WP:BLP as court proceeding are still in progress and it is sub judice in the UK - murder has not been proven. -- DeFacto ( talk). 20:54, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
- Delete ("onya coola, going against this afd's consensus":)) as WP:NOTNEWS and does not meet WP:EVENT, although tragic and newsworthy, due to low numbers of British police killed in line of duty (although i see that not all at List of British police officers killed in the line of duty have articles), and having been run over twice, this does not mean that an article is required. i note that a number of "keepers" above have suggested a "wait and see", interesting idea (i like mention of WP:10YT:)) but this appears to be contrary to WP:EVENTCRITERIA that emphasises event endurance now ie. "have enduring historical significance", "have a significant lasting effect", "if also re-analyzed afterwards", "4.Routine kinds of news events (including most crimes, ... usually not notable unless something further gives them additional enduring significance.", so WP:TOOSOON is also probably relevant. i wouldn't oppose an addition to the hatnote at Andrew Harper directing wikireaders to List of British police officers killed in the line of duty. Coolabahapple ( talk) 02:15, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- As it says in
WP:LASTING, "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." (my emphasis). Basically, we don't need to delete an article simply because it relates to a recent event.
FOARP (
talk) 07:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST is in Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Narky Blert ( talk) 19:15, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- As it says in
WP:LASTING, "It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." (my emphasis). Basically, we don't need to delete an article simply because it relates to a recent event.
FOARP (
talk) 07:01, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.