- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Pamzeis ( talk) 12:58, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
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- Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Redirect to Santa Rosa, California. Informal neighborhood fails WP:GEOLAND, and has only received trivial coverage from local publications. KidAd talk 04:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 08:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 12:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 05:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 05:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. The current article includes numerous sources documenting info, usage from 1870 on. It appears to have been a community, eventually swallowed up by expanding Santa Rosa. Wikipedia is a gazetteer(?) about places, if a community is documented, even only by local sources, it can be covered in Wikipedia. Also Wikipedia is not temporary or whatever, a former community is valid too. Communities might possibly be listed within a higher level article, like "Neighborhoods" section of Santa Rosa article, but can/should have a separate article if there is enough to say about it (which is the case here). I don't happen to see immediately if it was ever legally in existence as a town, but it did have legal existence at least in form of a Monroe school district, whose annexation into Santa Rosa school district is documented. The nomination is harsh, suggesting redirect, i.e. that there is nothing even worth merging. There is far too much documented material to merge into Santa Rosa article's section on neighborhoods. This article is the place to cover Monroe, and to accommodate additional future information, such as, perhaps, historic photo(s) of its school(s) and of its general plan. So, keep. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:05, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't exactly understand what you mean by Wikipedia being a "gazetteer." Wikipedia is certainly not a
travel guide. Every square block of every city in America surely has some interesting story attached to it, but that doesn't mean that those need to be catalogued in detail on Wikipedia. A large section is dedicated to "Elementary School," which contains a series of dry factoids about a local one-room schoolhouse. Generally, content on this page is all trivial, and would be far better suited to a local archive or historical society.
KidAd
talk
23:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Technically the wp:NOTTRAVEL admonition, that Wikipedia is not to be a travel guide, is only about not including phone numbers and opening hours and other ephemera which are appropriate for mention in travel guide coverage of a place but not for Wikipedia's coverage of the same place. And this article doesn't include any phone numbers or opening hours or the like. By "larch" u mean "large", right? -- Doncram ( talk) 01:54, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for asking. I understand a gazetteer is a publication which covers everything, like a Sears Roebuck catalog is a gazetteer about the company's products. Wikipedia is not a gazetteer about Sears products and not about many other things, but basically i think policy is that Wikipedia agrees to list all _places/communities_ (of some types) by presumption of notability for all of them, rather than requiring sources (so in the past in many AFDs it has been said Wikipedia is in fact a gazetteer about them). Also in the past there was consensus that all high schools everywhere in the world would be acceptable, as long as existence was proven, so "Wikipedia is a gazetteer about high schools" was said (and IMO that was good policy for Wikipedia for several reasons including marketing-type/gateway-type reason of making it easy for people everywhere to get started into Wikipedia). Okay, looking for it, please see:
wp:Gazetteer. Which links to
wp:GEOLAND within Wikipedia policy about notability of places, and see that Populated, legally recognized places which have ever existed are presumed notable, and for this one there existed a school district at least, IMHO meeting the criteria (though u might disagree the school district suffices). Also see about Populated places without legal recognition, for which Wikipedia coverage is appropriate if there exist sources, which are explicitly available here. IMHO the article is fine, though I hear your point that u think the material is dry. If others agree with you that the article should not be kept, though, then "merger" would still be appropriate rather than "redirect" for some of the sources and (dry) material to be merged. --
Doncram (
talk)
01:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Doncram, where would content from this article be merged? I have not come across articles related to Santa Rosa, California that provide this much...coverage on an elementary school and surrounding neighborhood. Like I said, save it for the Santa Rosa Historical Society or local county archives. KidAd talk 02:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I see that WP:GEOLAND is an established policy, but Wikipedia:Gazetteer appears to be a pretty stale (meaning old) essay. Per WP:IINFO, Wikipedia should not be an indiscriminate collection of facts, figures, data, or historical information, even if that material is sourced to hyper-local publications. More than half of Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) is dedicated to the elementary school. I've noticed that Wikipedia usually includes pages on high schools, omitting elementary or middle schools unless they are notable for other reasons. It does not appear that the school of the same name is notable enough to confer notability upon the neighborhood in which it is located. Just some things to think about. KidAd talk 01:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't exactly understand what you mean by Wikipedia being a "gazetteer." Wikipedia is certainly not a
travel guide. Every square block of every city in America surely has some interesting story attached to it, but that doesn't mean that those need to be catalogued in detail on Wikipedia. A large section is dedicated to "Elementary School," which contains a series of dry factoids about a local one-room schoolhouse. Generally, content on this page is all trivial, and would be far better suited to a local archive or historical society.
KidAd
talk
23:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Upon further research, it appears that a large portion of this article is dedicated to an elementary school in the neighborhood/district. A better redirect location may be Santa Rosa City Schools instead of Santa Rosa, California. KidAd talk 01:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | [verbalize] || 07:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | [verbalize] || 07:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: But there's other substantial material not relating to the school, including about the Monroe Clubhouse founded in 1915, built in 1922, dance floor said to be the best in Northern California laid in 1947, still serving for dance classes and other functions today. And there's other material i can't reach without newspapers.com subscription. It's a community, long documented, just keep it. I !voted "Keep" above. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:08, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Doncram. Meets WP:GEOLAND. There is too much info for a Merge into Santa Rosa which is already good sized. MB 07:16, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Pamzeis ( talk) 12:58, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Redirect to Santa Rosa, California. Informal neighborhood fails WP:GEOLAND, and has only received trivial coverage from local publications. KidAd talk 04:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 08:48, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 12:43, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 05:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America 1000 05:26, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. The current article includes numerous sources documenting info, usage from 1870 on. It appears to have been a community, eventually swallowed up by expanding Santa Rosa. Wikipedia is a gazetteer(?) about places, if a community is documented, even only by local sources, it can be covered in Wikipedia. Also Wikipedia is not temporary or whatever, a former community is valid too. Communities might possibly be listed within a higher level article, like "Neighborhoods" section of Santa Rosa article, but can/should have a separate article if there is enough to say about it (which is the case here). I don't happen to see immediately if it was ever legally in existence as a town, but it did have legal existence at least in form of a Monroe school district, whose annexation into Santa Rosa school district is documented. The nomination is harsh, suggesting redirect, i.e. that there is nothing even worth merging. There is far too much documented material to merge into Santa Rosa article's section on neighborhoods. This article is the place to cover Monroe, and to accommodate additional future information, such as, perhaps, historic photo(s) of its school(s) and of its general plan. So, keep. -- Doncram ( talk) 22:05, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't exactly understand what you mean by Wikipedia being a "gazetteer." Wikipedia is certainly not a
travel guide. Every square block of every city in America surely has some interesting story attached to it, but that doesn't mean that those need to be catalogued in detail on Wikipedia. A large section is dedicated to "Elementary School," which contains a series of dry factoids about a local one-room schoolhouse. Generally, content on this page is all trivial, and would be far better suited to a local archive or historical society.
KidAd
talk
23:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Technically the wp:NOTTRAVEL admonition, that Wikipedia is not to be a travel guide, is only about not including phone numbers and opening hours and other ephemera which are appropriate for mention in travel guide coverage of a place but not for Wikipedia's coverage of the same place. And this article doesn't include any phone numbers or opening hours or the like. By "larch" u mean "large", right? -- Doncram ( talk) 01:54, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for asking. I understand a gazetteer is a publication which covers everything, like a Sears Roebuck catalog is a gazetteer about the company's products. Wikipedia is not a gazetteer about Sears products and not about many other things, but basically i think policy is that Wikipedia agrees to list all _places/communities_ (of some types) by presumption of notability for all of them, rather than requiring sources (so in the past in many AFDs it has been said Wikipedia is in fact a gazetteer about them). Also in the past there was consensus that all high schools everywhere in the world would be acceptable, as long as existence was proven, so "Wikipedia is a gazetteer about high schools" was said (and IMO that was good policy for Wikipedia for several reasons including marketing-type/gateway-type reason of making it easy for people everywhere to get started into Wikipedia). Okay, looking for it, please see:
wp:Gazetteer. Which links to
wp:GEOLAND within Wikipedia policy about notability of places, and see that Populated, legally recognized places which have ever existed are presumed notable, and for this one there existed a school district at least, IMHO meeting the criteria (though u might disagree the school district suffices). Also see about Populated places without legal recognition, for which Wikipedia coverage is appropriate if there exist sources, which are explicitly available here. IMHO the article is fine, though I hear your point that u think the material is dry. If others agree with you that the article should not be kept, though, then "merger" would still be appropriate rather than "redirect" for some of the sources and (dry) material to be merged. --
Doncram (
talk)
01:47, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Doncram, where would content from this article be merged? I have not come across articles related to Santa Rosa, California that provide this much...coverage on an elementary school and surrounding neighborhood. Like I said, save it for the Santa Rosa Historical Society or local county archives. KidAd talk 02:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I see that WP:GEOLAND is an established policy, but Wikipedia:Gazetteer appears to be a pretty stale (meaning old) essay. Per WP:IINFO, Wikipedia should not be an indiscriminate collection of facts, figures, data, or historical information, even if that material is sourced to hyper-local publications. More than half of Monroe District (Santa Rosa, California) is dedicated to the elementary school. I've noticed that Wikipedia usually includes pages on high schools, omitting elementary or middle schools unless they are notable for other reasons. It does not appear that the school of the same name is notable enough to confer notability upon the neighborhood in which it is located. Just some things to think about. KidAd talk 01:53, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- I don't exactly understand what you mean by Wikipedia being a "gazetteer." Wikipedia is certainly not a
travel guide. Every square block of every city in America surely has some interesting story attached to it, but that doesn't mean that those need to be catalogued in detail on Wikipedia. A large section is dedicated to "Elementary School," which contains a series of dry factoids about a local one-room schoolhouse. Generally, content on this page is all trivial, and would be far better suited to a local archive or historical society.
KidAd
talk
23:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Upon further research, it appears that a large portion of this article is dedicated to an elementary school in the neighborhood/district. A better redirect location may be Santa Rosa City Schools instead of Santa Rosa, California. KidAd talk 01:56, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | [verbalize] || 07:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | [verbalize] || 07:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- Comment: But there's other substantial material not relating to the school, including about the Monroe Clubhouse founded in 1915, built in 1922, dance floor said to be the best in Northern California laid in 1947, still serving for dance classes and other functions today. And there's other material i can't reach without newspapers.com subscription. It's a community, long documented, just keep it. I !voted "Keep" above. -- Doncram ( talk) 20:08, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
- Keep per Doncram. Meets WP:GEOLAND. There is too much info for a Merge into Santa Rosa which is already good sized. MB 07:16, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.