- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep. — CactusWriter (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Monroe, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is an example of a recent series of articles which appear to have been created by correlating a dump of "locale" names from GNIS with a database of post office names from the Kansas Historical Society. Now, GNIS states that "locale" as specifically excluding a "populated place", and indeed, the location they give is that of the intersection of two section line roads, with no structure at all in the immediate vicinity. A little ways south there is a "Monroe Cemetery" (GNIS says so, and the aerial photo agrees), but a cemetery is not as a rule a place where people live, and a post office is not a dwelling, and often isn't a building at all. The upshot is that the synthesis of these two sources, neither of which says that there was a town or even a building here, isn't good enough to claim a "settlement" I've not come up with any other evidence for such a place, although the genuine existence of a township in a different county does impede such a search a bit. Mangoe ( talk) 15:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 15:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kansas-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 15:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep we typically have always kept articles about once-populated places such as this. Kackley, Kansas, Rice, Kansas, and Yuma, Kansas all come to mind as examples. Notability cannot be lost, and since these once-populated places were by definition cities and towns, they pass WP:GEOLAND: "Even abandoned places can remain notable, because notability encompasses their entire history"-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:41, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is evidence that Kackley, Rice, and Yuma actually were towns. Find me evidence that Monroe ever was a town; the cited works do not say that, and GNIS tend to say it was not a town.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
-
Kansas State Historical Society has records that a local newspaper wrote a story in 1966 about the organization of the Monroe School District #2 back in 1873. The bibliography mentions: "Monroe School District No. 2 Was Organized in Lincoln County in 1873." Lincoln Sentinel-Republican. Apr. 14, 1966. [1 p.]. (Reel: L1507). It stands to reason that we're looking for offline sources here, but that is a good reference that at one time it was populated since it would have maintained a school district.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- More detail
History of Monroe School, Organized in 1873 confirms that the area was populated and gives names of prominent citizens.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- I've dug through all those, but I keep coming up with the same issue: none of this adds up to a "settlement". They add up to a dot/area on a map that people are "from", but as best I can determine the reality is that the postal system in those days needed a "town" on the envelope, so names were given to all these post offices. I'm going to put in a query with the KHS, but assuming these get kept, they need to be described better than the misleading "settlement".
Mangoe (
talk)
15:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- what then would be your definition of a "settlement" ? In any event, that would be an editing issue and not a deletion issue. Even by your description above, that seems to me to pass the requirements in
WP:GEOLAND: "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low." Am I missing something in your interpretation?--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
02:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- I'm coming around to the idea of withdrawing them, but I would like to get a better picture of what these places actually are. Mangoe ( talk) 04:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- what then would be your definition of a "settlement" ? In any event, that would be an editing issue and not a deletion issue. Even by your description above, that seems to me to pass the requirements in
WP:GEOLAND: "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low." Am I missing something in your interpretation?--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
02:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- I've dug through all those, but I keep coming up with the same issue: none of this adds up to a "settlement". They add up to a dot/area on a map that people are "from", but as best I can determine the reality is that the postal system in those days needed a "town" on the envelope, so names were given to all these post offices. I'm going to put in a query with the KHS, but assuming these get kept, they need to be described better than the misleading "settlement".
Mangoe (
talk)
15:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- More detail
History of Monroe School, Organized in 1873 confirms that the area was populated and gives names of prominent citizens.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
-
Kansas State Historical Society has records that a local newspaper wrote a story in 1966 about the organization of the Monroe School District #2 back in 1873. The bibliography mentions: "Monroe School District No. 2 Was Organized in Lincoln County in 1873." Lincoln Sentinel-Republican. Apr. 14, 1966. [1 p.]. (Reel: L1507). It stands to reason that we're looking for offline sources here, but that is a good reference that at one time it was populated since it would have maintained a school district.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is evidence that Kackley, Rice, and Yuma actually were towns. Find me evidence that Monroe ever was a town; the cited works do not say that, and GNIS tend to say it was not a town.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Per the excellent research above. Smartyllama ( talk) 14:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep as per Paulmcdonald. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:37, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep. — CactusWriter (talk) 18:18, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- Monroe, Kansas ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is an example of a recent series of articles which appear to have been created by correlating a dump of "locale" names from GNIS with a database of post office names from the Kansas Historical Society. Now, GNIS states that "locale" as specifically excluding a "populated place", and indeed, the location they give is that of the intersection of two section line roads, with no structure at all in the immediate vicinity. A little ways south there is a "Monroe Cemetery" (GNIS says so, and the aerial photo agrees), but a cemetery is not as a rule a place where people live, and a post office is not a dwelling, and often isn't a building at all. The upshot is that the synthesis of these two sources, neither of which says that there was a town or even a building here, isn't good enough to claim a "settlement" I've not come up with any other evidence for such a place, although the genuine existence of a township in a different county does impede such a search a bit. Mangoe ( talk) 15:50, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 15:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kansas-related deletion discussions. MT Train Talk 15:54, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep we typically have always kept articles about once-populated places such as this. Kackley, Kansas, Rice, Kansas, and Yuma, Kansas all come to mind as examples. Notability cannot be lost, and since these once-populated places were by definition cities and towns, they pass WP:GEOLAND: "Even abandoned places can remain notable, because notability encompasses their entire history"-- Paul McDonald ( talk) 20:41, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is evidence that Kackley, Rice, and Yuma actually were towns. Find me evidence that Monroe ever was a town; the cited works do not say that, and GNIS tend to say it was not a town.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
-
Kansas State Historical Society has records that a local newspaper wrote a story in 1966 about the organization of the Monroe School District #2 back in 1873. The bibliography mentions: "Monroe School District No. 2 Was Organized in Lincoln County in 1873." Lincoln Sentinel-Republican. Apr. 14, 1966. [1 p.]. (Reel: L1507). It stands to reason that we're looking for offline sources here, but that is a good reference that at one time it was populated since it would have maintained a school district.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- More detail
History of Monroe School, Organized in 1873 confirms that the area was populated and gives names of prominent citizens.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- I've dug through all those, but I keep coming up with the same issue: none of this adds up to a "settlement". They add up to a dot/area on a map that people are "from", but as best I can determine the reality is that the postal system in those days needed a "town" on the envelope, so names were given to all these post offices. I'm going to put in a query with the KHS, but assuming these get kept, they need to be described better than the misleading "settlement".
Mangoe (
talk)
15:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- what then would be your definition of a "settlement" ? In any event, that would be an editing issue and not a deletion issue. Even by your description above, that seems to me to pass the requirements in
WP:GEOLAND: "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low." Am I missing something in your interpretation?--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
02:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- I'm coming around to the idea of withdrawing them, but I would like to get a better picture of what these places actually are. Mangoe ( talk) 04:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- what then would be your definition of a "settlement" ? In any event, that would be an editing issue and not a deletion issue. Even by your description above, that seems to me to pass the requirements in
WP:GEOLAND: "Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low." Am I missing something in your interpretation?--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
02:09, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
- I've dug through all those, but I keep coming up with the same issue: none of this adds up to a "settlement". They add up to a dot/area on a map that people are "from", but as best I can determine the reality is that the postal system in those days needed a "town" on the envelope, so names were given to all these post offices. I'm going to put in a query with the KHS, but assuming these get kept, they need to be described better than the misleading "settlement".
Mangoe (
talk)
15:22, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- More detail
History of Monroe School, Organized in 1873 confirms that the area was populated and gives names of prominent citizens.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:25, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
-
Kansas State Historical Society has records that a local newspaper wrote a story in 1966 about the organization of the Monroe School District #2 back in 1873. The bibliography mentions: "Monroe School District No. 2 Was Organized in Lincoln County in 1873." Lincoln Sentinel-Republican. Apr. 14, 1966. [1 p.]. (Reel: L1507). It stands to reason that we're looking for offline sources here, but that is a good reference that at one time it was populated since it would have maintained a school district.--
Paul McDonald (
talk)
21:19, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- There is evidence that Kackley, Rice, and Yuma actually were towns. Find me evidence that Monroe ever was a town; the cited works do not say that, and GNIS tend to say it was not a town.
Mangoe (
talk)
20:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Per the excellent research above. Smartyllama ( talk) 14:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep as per Paulmcdonald. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 05:37, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.