- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Daniel ( talk) 01:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
March of Ukrainian Nationalists
- March of Ukrainian Nationalists ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
the anthem of a political party with no soruces outsite the parties own site does not seem to pass WP:GNG Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 1000 13:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 1000 13:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Lol. Wow. I knew I should have put an {{ increation}} template. Otherwise some leftist would flag it for deletion. Your reasons for deletion shows that you really don't know anything about this topic.
- First of all, this is not just the song of a "political party". This is the song of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists which was a political movement that lead to the creation of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a major of part of the liberation movement in western Ukraine during the first half of the 19th century.
- Secondly, please show me which of the links is the website of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. This Organization hasn't existed for over half a century and they do not have a website.
- Finally, how did you manage to analyze the sources without being a Ukrainian speaker? Because your conclusion was entirely wrong. It looks you nominated this page for deletion because like you don't like the content of this page, not because there is a legitimate reason to delete it.-- Bogu Slav 15:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- I came across the site in new page patrol, had nothing to do with your template. "leftist" is a personal attack, which I suggest you retract per WP:NPA. Its pretty simple, in my opinion you have not demonstrated that this song meets WP:GNG or WP:NSONG. Show that it does, preferably by finding multiple books/magazines/articles etc discussing it in depth. The second ref in the article appears to be a simple lyrics listing with no commentary. The first is a general source about all ukranian nationalist symbols that has a brief mention of the song. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:08, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- And still, your analysis is wrong. The first source has a very large chunk discussing the anthem of the OUN/UPA, not just "a brief mention". The Second source does have a commentary of below the song, discussing more about the life of the author of the song, Oles Babiy. The Ukrainian liberation movement was an important uprising in western Ukraine, and the anthem of the Insurgent Army was commonly performed and known by supporters of the movement during those times. The Ukrainian Insurgent Army is still a huge topic of debate today, with the Kremlin currently accusing the Ukrainian government of sympathizing with it, while in western Ukraine the Ukrainian Insurgent Army is a source of inspiration. This anthem is still well known today, especially among supporters of OUN/UPA. For example, Ukrainian political parties, including parliamentary party VO Svoboda, make use of this song, along with the Ukrainian national anthem. [1] A historical book about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army used the name of this song as the title of the book. [2] People who honor the memory of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army always perform this song. This includes, for example, major choirs in the city of Lviv. [3]
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Davey2010 • (talk) 03:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment The argument above comes across as something of a dialogue of the deaf. It would have been better if the nominator had had the knowledge of Ukrainian politics to realise that the sites being used for citations probably had no direct connection with the OUN, whose historical influence goes far wider what is now left of the organisation. And the nominator needs to realise that it is quite possible for non-Ukrainians to be ignorant of Ukrainian history and politics, but still object to articles like this, not for political reasons but because they don't seem to conform to the sourcing requirements expected on English Wikipedia these days. In my own opinion, there are probably sufficient reliable sources - in English Wikipedia terms - available (though probably mostly in Ukrainian) to establish the song as notable, if probably still controversial, but only one of the sources currently in the article (the one from The Day) is likely to meet English Wikipedia reliability standards. Admittedly, it is always difficult to judge sources in a language one does not know, but the various Ukrainian websites from which the citations are drawn all look like ones whose equivalents in English would not normally be regarded as reliable. What would be better are books or articles (the more academic the better, though reputable newspapers should do) that discuss the song or its history in some detail. PWilkinson ( talk) 20:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with this assessment. The first line, in Ukrainian, does return a couple of dozen hits from Google Scholar, but it's brutal going for someone (such as myself) who does not read the language at all--Google Translate's Ukrainian-to-English is pretty horrible. Anyone literate in Ukrainian want to have a look? -- Hobbes Goodyear ( talk) 23:37, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica 1000 03:47, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Daniel ( talk) 01:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
March of Ukrainian Nationalists
- March of Ukrainian Nationalists ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
the anthem of a political party with no soruces outsite the parties own site does not seem to pass WP:GNG Gaijin42 ( talk) 02:55, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 1000 13:48, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 1000 13:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 14:26, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Lol. Wow. I knew I should have put an {{ increation}} template. Otherwise some leftist would flag it for deletion. Your reasons for deletion shows that you really don't know anything about this topic.
- First of all, this is not just the song of a "political party". This is the song of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists which was a political movement that lead to the creation of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a major of part of the liberation movement in western Ukraine during the first half of the 19th century.
- Secondly, please show me which of the links is the website of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. This Organization hasn't existed for over half a century and they do not have a website.
- Finally, how did you manage to analyze the sources without being a Ukrainian speaker? Because your conclusion was entirely wrong. It looks you nominated this page for deletion because like you don't like the content of this page, not because there is a legitimate reason to delete it.-- Bogu Slav 15:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- I came across the site in new page patrol, had nothing to do with your template. "leftist" is a personal attack, which I suggest you retract per WP:NPA. Its pretty simple, in my opinion you have not demonstrated that this song meets WP:GNG or WP:NSONG. Show that it does, preferably by finding multiple books/magazines/articles etc discussing it in depth. The second ref in the article appears to be a simple lyrics listing with no commentary. The first is a general source about all ukranian nationalist symbols that has a brief mention of the song. Gaijin42 ( talk) 16:08, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- And still, your analysis is wrong. The first source has a very large chunk discussing the anthem of the OUN/UPA, not just "a brief mention". The Second source does have a commentary of below the song, discussing more about the life of the author of the song, Oles Babiy. The Ukrainian liberation movement was an important uprising in western Ukraine, and the anthem of the Insurgent Army was commonly performed and known by supporters of the movement during those times. The Ukrainian Insurgent Army is still a huge topic of debate today, with the Kremlin currently accusing the Ukrainian government of sympathizing with it, while in western Ukraine the Ukrainian Insurgent Army is a source of inspiration. This anthem is still well known today, especially among supporters of OUN/UPA. For example, Ukrainian political parties, including parliamentary party VO Svoboda, make use of this song, along with the Ukrainian national anthem. [1] A historical book about the Ukrainian Insurgent Army used the name of this song as the title of the book. [2] People who honor the memory of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army always perform this song. This includes, for example, major choirs in the city of Lviv. [3]
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, – Davey2010 • (talk) 03:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
- Comment The argument above comes across as something of a dialogue of the deaf. It would have been better if the nominator had had the knowledge of Ukrainian politics to realise that the sites being used for citations probably had no direct connection with the OUN, whose historical influence goes far wider what is now left of the organisation. And the nominator needs to realise that it is quite possible for non-Ukrainians to be ignorant of Ukrainian history and politics, but still object to articles like this, not for political reasons but because they don't seem to conform to the sourcing requirements expected on English Wikipedia these days. In my own opinion, there are probably sufficient reliable sources - in English Wikipedia terms - available (though probably mostly in Ukrainian) to establish the song as notable, if probably still controversial, but only one of the sources currently in the article (the one from The Day) is likely to meet English Wikipedia reliability standards. Admittedly, it is always difficult to judge sources in a language one does not know, but the various Ukrainian websites from which the citations are drawn all look like ones whose equivalents in English would not normally be regarded as reliable. What would be better are books or articles (the more academic the better, though reputable newspapers should do) that discuss the song or its history in some detail. PWilkinson ( talk) 20:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with this assessment. The first line, in Ukrainian, does return a couple of dozen hits from Google Scholar, but it's brutal going for someone (such as myself) who does not read the language at all--Google Translate's Ukrainian-to-English is pretty horrible. Anyone literate in Ukrainian want to have a look? -- Hobbes Goodyear ( talk) 23:37, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
-
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica 1000 03:47, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.