The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Rough consensus among the participants was that there was precedent per WP:POLOUTCOMES for keeping this article, which was also improved during the course of the discussion. Sole dissention came from a weak delete, so there was certainly no consensus to delete. (non-admin closure) Etzedek24 ^{( I'll talk at ya) ( Check my track record)} 23:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC) reply

M. Brendan Fleming (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)

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Fleming was mayor of Lowell, Massachusetts, a city of less than 100,000 people at the time which is part of the Boston metro area. I dug deeper though. Since 1944 the office of mayor in Lowell has been a ceremonial office, the mayor has no more actual power than any other member of the city council. In the past when faced with mayors of similarly sized and important level cities to Lowell with ceremonial mayors, such as Richard Notte in Sterling Heights, Michigan we have deleted the articles. Notte at least was mayor a while, Fleming served just 2 years. The one source is actually coverage about a debate on whether to name a park after Jack Kerouac, and Fleming's opposition to this is noted. The coverage in that article is not focused on Fleming. My search for information on Fleming did not find any sourcing, verifiability says we really should not have so much unsourced information in the article, but as shown above in other similar situations of ceremonial mayors of similarly sized locales we have deleted the article. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 17:45, 27 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Massachusetts-related deletion discussions. P,TO 19104 ( talk) ( contribs) 18:41, 27 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Spiderone ^{(Talk to Spider)} 19:01, 27 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• DeleteWeak delete. Per nominator. A mayor of a city of Lowell's size does not pass WP:NPOL, so to be relevant there should be coverage to show that he was more than a local figure per WP:POLOUTCOMES (especially since as a ceremonial mayor, he did not have much more power than a councilor). The only coverage I could find were articles by the Lowell Sun (very local newspaper), an obituary by the Boston Globe (local), and a few mentions in a book about Lowell municipal elections. - Tristan Surtel ( talk) 22:12, 27 January 2021 (UTC) Updated vote: Lowell seems to have some regional and historic prominence, but I'm not entirely convinced of Brendan Fleming's relevancy: only one article from a non-Lowell newspaper (The Boston Globe) provides significant coverage and the position is mostly ceremonial. - Tristan Surtel ( talk) 08:35, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• Comment. Although if one should consider population, Lowell has been the fourth largest city in Massachusetts and has reached population > 100,000 since 1910. All other mayors in Lowell's history also have their own page as showcased on List of mayors and city managers of Lowell, Massachusetts. If this page should be deleted instead, it should be noted every Lowell mayor which has their own page would have to be deleted and the page listing them. BenKlesc ( talk) 03:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• I'm not saying a mayor of Lowell cannot meet the relevancy criteria. I have noticed that a large portion of Lowell mayors with an article have also been members of the Massachusetts Senate/House of Representatives, which cause them to pass WP:NPOL. - Tristan Surtel ( talk) 08:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Per WP:POLOUTCOMES: "Mayors: Mayors of cities of at least regional prominence have usually survived AFD . . . Mayors of smaller towns, however, are generally deemed not notable just for being mayors." I have a recollection that this has been interpreted to mean that, in general, mayors of cities with population > 100,000 are notable. Cbl62 ( talk) 09:09, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• I don't think that Lowell had over 100,000 inhabitants in 1982–84, given Lowell, Massachusetts' demographic section. However, if you can show consensus that mayors of cities that would later reach 100,000 people are considered notable, I'm willing to change my vote. I now also agree that the Boston Globe counts towards WP:GNG, but WP:Multiple sources are needed. Factiva and NewsBank show that more newpapers have written about Brendan Fleming's opposition to naming the park after Kerouac, but those article don't provide significant coverage. - Tristan Surtel ( talk) 09:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• This is a point of view to consider. If you take every major city whether that be Boston, Chicago, New York City, Los Angeles. Those cities at one point had population > 100,000, but you can find thousands of mayors with their own page which governed at a time when they were relatively small in population compared with today. Examples New York City's Mayor John Ferguson who served in 1815. Boston's mayors from 1834 to 1836 Theodore Lyman II, Jonathan Chapman who served from 1840 to 1842, and William Parker serving in 1845. Chicago's mayors Benjamin Wright Raymond from 1840, and Alexander Loyd from 1840 to 1841, and Augustus Garrett from 1845 to 1846. Los Angeles mayors from 1899 John Bryson, Thomas E. Rowan from 1892 to 1894, and Cristobal Aguilar from 1866 to 1867 out of the many more. I chose to highlight these as mayors that had no other political experience, in cities which at one point had a population > 100,000. BenKlesc ( talk) 11:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• Question/comment. Lowell has had a population of > 100,000 since the early 1900s. I thought we had a guideline or established practice that mayors of cities with populations > 100,000 were presumed to be notable. Has that changed? Also, The Boston Globe obit ( here) is quite substantive and should definitely be counted in any meaningful GNG analysis. Cbl62 ( talk) 05:32, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Lowell has been a notable city in Massachusetts, with all mayors already having their own pages as seen on List of mayors and city managers of Lowell, Massachusetts. Sterling Heights had a population < 3,000 in 1940. Some more examples would be that New York City did not have a population > 100,000 until 1820, but we also have List of mayors of New York City going back to 1655. I have updated more relevant citations from Associated Press and internationally acclaimed Boston Globe. Also this article was written in collaboration with Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography, Wikipedia:WikiProject United States, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Massachusetts. BenKlesc ( talk) 06:58, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply
• Keep. Lowell is a city of "regional prominence" as described in WP:POLOUTCOMES regarding Mayors. Lowell was one of the first industrial centers in the United States dating to the early 1800s. It rose above 100,000 population by the early 1900s. (The fact that it dipped for 3 decades slightly below 100,000 when the US textile industry collapsed does not change this. Indeed, the city's comeback/revitalization began during Fleming's mayoralty as discussed in this piece from the Christian Science Monitor.) Moreover, Fleming has received coverage sufficient to pass the WP:GNG bar. Examples include this from The Boston Globe and this, this, and this from the Lowell Sun. In addition, Fleming's battle against Kerouac park received national attention. E.g., here and here. Finally, the nominator's comparison to Sterling Heights is WP:OSE and inapposite; unlike Lowell, Sterling Heights is barely even a real city; it didn't even crack 5,000 population until after WWII and is a mere suburb of Detroit. Cbl62 ( talk) 11:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply
• Comment The above editors have ignored the fact that the mayor of Lowell holds a ceremonial postion, the mayor is not the actual administrative postion. The gratuitous attacks on a city of well over 130,000 as "barely even a real city" are uncalled for and show a huge bias that has no justification. Structurally Sterling Heights is just as much a "real city" as any other city in Michigan, and the total rudeness in the comments is totally uncalled for and not justified. These editors have in no way addressed the fact that being mayor of Lowell is not the position that is the adminstrator of the city. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:49, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply
• Comment The comparison to Sterling Heights works because they are both cities with council/manager forms of government. Sterling Heights has been the location of several very significant automobile factories for well over half a centry. The dismissive and rude comments above are not at all justified. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 13:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

In your nominating statement, you drew an analogy between Lowell and Sterling Heights asserting that they were "similarly sized and important level". In fact, Sterling Heights is WP:OSE and should never have been brought into the discussion. Moreover, the comparison is utterly inapt since Lowell's history is long and profound in the industrial history of the US, whereas Sterling Heights is (per our WP article) "one of Detroit's core suburbs" and didn't even incorporate as a city until 1968. Cbl62 ( talk) 21:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Some may agree or disagree and that is okay. Always love to see passion and hope to keep this debate civil and respectful. My take for this would be that Lowell has had a significant history going back two and ahalf centuries and 140 years of signifiant population. Especially if you take WP:OSE arguments. The argument I'm looking at and correct if wrong, since the city dipped < 100,000 for a decade it disqualifies mayors. I would say the one point to consider is that you can apply the same justification to every city in the United States. Now the second argument and correct if wrong is that Lowell's position for mayor is ceremonial. That is true however, I would like to point to List of mayors and city managers of Lowell, Massachusetts showcasing that every mayor in Lowell's history already has their own page if that adds any significance. It's also showing he was manager of the city council and voting member for nine consecutive terms with significant press coverage. I would like to point out that Sterling Heights, Michigan has no page dedicated to elected mayors, however now that its population has reached a significant size I would defend public officials with notable significance from deletion. It appears it did not have any historical significance until the last three decades in terms of population size and notability. I also see and like the use of citations which meet WP:NPOL requirements. If anyone disagrees would love to hear other opinions and have someone else chime in. BenKlesc ( talk) 07:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply

Of the mayors since Fleming, 11 lack articles. There are also several mayors before Fleming who lack articles. The claim we have articles on every mayor of Lowell is false. Beyond that, several of the mayors of Lowell have articles as a result of holding other offices. Sterling Heights, Michigan has had significance for all the 50+ years of its existence. It was virtually as large in the 1980s as it is today, stop talking about things you know nothing about. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and it suffers from extreme over coverage of all things related to Massachusetts. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 12:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply

What I meant was a page exists of every mayor in Lowell's history, and they are hyperlinked to pages that are in question of being deleted which would alter that significant page. I cannot answer what happened because I was not around when Richard Notte was deleted, but I can say that is my view based on my interpretation of WP:NPOL standards. Of my interpretation a mayor of Lowell, Massachusetts does not violate a written guideline. I will be anxious to hear as we open to other opinions on what they believe should be done. BenKlesc ( talk) 13:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply

• Update If anyone is interested, I spent the last week researching more backstory for the page that was rather unfinished. I've added the altercation with Senator Ted Kennedy when the Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis ordered the Attorney General to sue Fleming and Lowell School Committee on 14th amendment violations during the Boston desegregation busing crisis. I've cited articles from Boston Globe and Christian Science Monitor. I believe this political figure is a somewhat significant part of Lowell and Massachusetts history. BenKlesc ( talk) 10:08, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply
• Comment The existence of a list article on Wikipedia on a topic does not prove that it is notable. It just proves that someone cared about it. Wikipedia has lots of unneeded articles and lacks lots of needed ones. We do not follow grandfather clauses or other policies that would make our existant content determanative of the content that is needed. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 12:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply
• Keep per WP:HEY. While mayors of mid-sized cities are not automatically notable, they can be if WP:SIGCOV shows they pass WP:GNG. Bearian ( talk) 19:21, 29 January 2021 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.