- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Lutheran High School Association. Discussion went through several options, with changes of recommendation by several people, but the final consensus appears to be to redirect. MelanieN ( talk) 01:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Lutheran High School East (Michigan)
- Lutheran High School East (Michigan) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Unable to find any Reliable Sources for this school JMHamo ( talk) 23:35, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect [was
Speedy Keep] It is or was a high school. By wp:SCHOOLOUTCOMES(?), we keep it. Any evidence that it exists, is enough. Classmates.com says it has 2000 alumni. Done. -- do ncr am 23:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- User:Kudpung may be right about the article being misnamed or the school no longer existing. The Classmates.com link is actually for "Lutheran East High School", of Harper Woods, MI, not "Lutheran High School East". However, there is an alumni reunion scheduled for October 22nd, 2016, and the school reportedly has 2,180 alumni. -- do ncr am 20:21, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia article Notre Dame High School (Harper Woods, Michigan) states that the school was closed in 2004 (and I have now repeated that unsourced assertion in this article). This is not inconsistent with the football team's record linked by User:Clarityfiend, which provides its win-loss records for 2002 and 2003. -- do ncr am 20:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment. I found its football team's record. [1] Clarityfiend ( talk) 01:46, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect
Keep - it exists, so we keep it per long standing consensus.Apparently fails WP:V. VMS Mosaic ( talk) 04:09, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia ( talk) 04:53, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia ( talk) 04:53, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Delete.
Keep.Comment: Changing my vote again to 'delete' based on further research done by John from Idegon and myself. There is decidedly something odd about this article. Such a school does not appear to exist. at least not under the name provided. There is a Lutherian High School, and there is a Harper Woods High School run by the Harper Woods School District, and there are other Lutheran High Schools in Mitchigan but none in Harper Woods and there is no Lutheran High School East (Michigan) in any Ghits. It's possible that the school once existed but has merged, moved, renamed or even closed down but util a street addresss can be found, I'm changing my vote to a neutral comment. The article Made in 1 edit by an SPA and could use some expansion and layout per WP:WPSCH/AG by someone willing. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 12:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC) Speedy Keep - article shouldn't have been nominated. Meets minimum requirements for notability for a school. Sure does need work tho.John from Idegon ( talk) 16:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, further.
Kudpung and myself spent an extensive amount of time today researching this school. The only thing either of us found was
this, a timeline from the website of the Lutheran school association of Detroit. It did verify the school's creation being branched off another school and clarified it's demise, being merged into another school in 2004. However, there was just one line simply stating each of those bare facts (even disregarding the lack of independence). Further issues: neither the original school, the school this one was folded into, nor the church's regional education association have an existing article. After extensive searching by two experienced editors, nothing more than that was found. Perhaps others would have different results. I've never done this before and probably never will again, but despite guidelines and outcomes, there is not enough to create an article on this school and no reasonable place to redirect it. I'm changing my vote to
DeleteRedirect, per doncram and thanks to him. John from Idegon ( talk) 04:07, 11 September 2016 (UTC) signed for change John from Idegon ( talk) 07:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Delete - fails WP:VERIFY and WP:GNG, as John's research shows. Cordless Larry ( talk) 21:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Thank you to John from Idegon and Kudpung for applying good effort. But this AFD, headed towards "Delete", is going off the rails, relative to what should happen IMHO. Deletion would simply go backwards, and would have persons arriving at Wikipedia and restarting the article, because it is a valid topic. It would "forget" everything figured out here, including that redirecting to Lutheran High School Association (at this moment of writing a red-link, but not for long) would be fine. So find an alternative ( wp:ATD) that keeps edit history and discussion, including a Talk page link to this AFD... I'm creating LHSA as a stub and then this AFD should be closed as "Redirect" to there. Relatedly, please see Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Proposal: new "Merging to a list" section about expanding the Alternatives To Deletion guideline. -- do ncr am 04:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the lecture
Doncram but I know all about our deletion policies and alternatives to deletion (and OUTCOMES), which I regularly advocate myself. However, a school that does not exist or that cannot properly be identified as having existed can obviously not be a candidate for redirect - anywhere. Sorry.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk) 18:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Kudpung, I thought that your position, and the consensus emerging, was that there are not adequate sources to make a decent article, but that LHE certainly existed. So that you would agree a redirect is valid, if there is a suitable redirect target (but no redirect target seemed to exist, so then you would choose to delete instead). I think I am taking a broader view on the role of AFD. I think someone oughta take responsibility to create list-articles (as I argue at the linked proposal) and combo articles like the new LHSA article and/or whatever else is needed, in order to ensure retention of the information/content of contributions in question. I may have sounded critical of K and JfromI for not choosing to be that person, and to some extent I guess I really was critical. Please do accept my apology for that. I should be clear that the responsibility should be "the collective of AFD editors", not any one person's. I am willing to step up and be that person sometimes, as I did here, but I should not have blamed anyone else for not doing that. We are all volunteers, and I strongly believe that it is simply not right to demand that any one editor do any specific thing.
- In conclusion, I want to eliminate AFD decisions like "delete because a needed target article does not yet exist" and to promote decisions like "someone needs to create at least a stub, and the AFD will not be closed until that is done" or "the AFD is closed with consensus that the topic should be kept until target article A has been created, and then it should be merged/redirected". -- do ncr am 21:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the lecture
Doncram but I know all about our deletion policies and alternatives to deletion (and OUTCOMES), which I regularly advocate myself. However, a school that does not exist or that cannot properly be identified as having existed can obviously not be a candidate for redirect - anywhere. Sorry.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk) 18:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to
Lutheran High School Association. The school passes
Wikipedia:Verifiability. Here are two sources:
- Harrison, Sheena (2003-03-12).
"Volleyball team struggles through roller-coaster season".
The Detroit News. Archived from
the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
The article notes:
ROCHESTER HILLS -- It was a season full of extremes for the volleyball team at Lutheran High School Northwest.
"We've had some very big highs and very big lows," Coach Bridgett Ohlrich said.
With a 6-8-1 overall and 3-5 Metro Conference record, the Crusaders dealt with dramatic ups and downs all season. A loss to Harper Woods Lutheran High School East (15-2, 15-4) Jan. 28 dealt a blow to the team's morale.
-
"Valley pounds out win".
The Saginaw News. 2000-10-29. Archived from
the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
The article notes:
Wolgast broke a scoreless tie with a pair of second-half goals sending his team on to face the Grosse Pointe University Liggett district winner at 4:30 p.m. Wednesday at Lutheran High School East in Harper Woods.
- Harrison, Sheena (2003-03-12).
"Volleyball team struggles through roller-coaster season".
The Detroit News. Archived from
the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Lutheran High School Association. Discussion went through several options, with changes of recommendation by several people, but the final consensus appears to be to redirect. MelanieN ( talk) 01:17, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Lutheran High School East (Michigan)
- Lutheran High School East (Michigan) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Unable to find any Reliable Sources for this school JMHamo ( talk) 23:35, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect [was
Speedy Keep] It is or was a high school. By wp:SCHOOLOUTCOMES(?), we keep it. Any evidence that it exists, is enough. Classmates.com says it has 2000 alumni. Done. -- do ncr am 23:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
- User:Kudpung may be right about the article being misnamed or the school no longer existing. The Classmates.com link is actually for "Lutheran East High School", of Harper Woods, MI, not "Lutheran High School East". However, there is an alumni reunion scheduled for October 22nd, 2016, and the school reportedly has 2,180 alumni. -- do ncr am 20:21, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia article Notre Dame High School (Harper Woods, Michigan) states that the school was closed in 2004 (and I have now repeated that unsourced assertion in this article). This is not inconsistent with the football team's record linked by User:Clarityfiend, which provides its win-loss records for 2002 and 2003. -- do ncr am 20:36, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment. I found its football team's record. [1] Clarityfiend ( talk) 01:46, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect
Keep - it exists, so we keep it per long standing consensus.Apparently fails WP:V. VMS Mosaic ( talk) 04:09, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia ( talk) 04:53, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions. GabeIglesia ( talk) 04:53, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Delete.
Keep.Comment: Changing my vote again to 'delete' based on further research done by John from Idegon and myself. There is decidedly something odd about this article. Such a school does not appear to exist. at least not under the name provided. There is a Lutherian High School, and there is a Harper Woods High School run by the Harper Woods School District, and there are other Lutheran High Schools in Mitchigan but none in Harper Woods and there is no Lutheran High School East (Michigan) in any Ghits. It's possible that the school once existed but has merged, moved, renamed or even closed down but util a street addresss can be found, I'm changing my vote to a neutral comment. The article Made in 1 edit by an SPA and could use some expansion and layout per WP:WPSCH/AG by someone willing. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 12:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC) Speedy Keep - article shouldn't have been nominated. Meets minimum requirements for notability for a school. Sure does need work tho.John from Idegon ( talk) 16:38, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, further.
Kudpung and myself spent an extensive amount of time today researching this school. The only thing either of us found was
this, a timeline from the website of the Lutheran school association of Detroit. It did verify the school's creation being branched off another school and clarified it's demise, being merged into another school in 2004. However, there was just one line simply stating each of those bare facts (even disregarding the lack of independence). Further issues: neither the original school, the school this one was folded into, nor the church's regional education association have an existing article. After extensive searching by two experienced editors, nothing more than that was found. Perhaps others would have different results. I've never done this before and probably never will again, but despite guidelines and outcomes, there is not enough to create an article on this school and no reasonable place to redirect it. I'm changing my vote to
DeleteRedirect, per doncram and thanks to him. John from Idegon ( talk) 04:07, 11 September 2016 (UTC) signed for change John from Idegon ( talk) 07:06, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Delete - fails WP:VERIFY and WP:GNG, as John's research shows. Cordless Larry ( talk) 21:06, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Thank you to John from Idegon and Kudpung for applying good effort. But this AFD, headed towards "Delete", is going off the rails, relative to what should happen IMHO. Deletion would simply go backwards, and would have persons arriving at Wikipedia and restarting the article, because it is a valid topic. It would "forget" everything figured out here, including that redirecting to Lutheran High School Association (at this moment of writing a red-link, but not for long) would be fine. So find an alternative ( wp:ATD) that keeps edit history and discussion, including a Talk page link to this AFD... I'm creating LHSA as a stub and then this AFD should be closed as "Redirect" to there. Relatedly, please see Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Proposal: new "Merging to a list" section about expanding the Alternatives To Deletion guideline. -- do ncr am 04:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the lecture
Doncram but I know all about our deletion policies and alternatives to deletion (and OUTCOMES), which I regularly advocate myself. However, a school that does not exist or that cannot properly be identified as having existed can obviously not be a candidate for redirect - anywhere. Sorry.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk) 18:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Kudpung, I thought that your position, and the consensus emerging, was that there are not adequate sources to make a decent article, but that LHE certainly existed. So that you would agree a redirect is valid, if there is a suitable redirect target (but no redirect target seemed to exist, so then you would choose to delete instead). I think I am taking a broader view on the role of AFD. I think someone oughta take responsibility to create list-articles (as I argue at the linked proposal) and combo articles like the new LHSA article and/or whatever else is needed, in order to ensure retention of the information/content of contributions in question. I may have sounded critical of K and JfromI for not choosing to be that person, and to some extent I guess I really was critical. Please do accept my apology for that. I should be clear that the responsibility should be "the collective of AFD editors", not any one person's. I am willing to step up and be that person sometimes, as I did here, but I should not have blamed anyone else for not doing that. We are all volunteers, and I strongly believe that it is simply not right to demand that any one editor do any specific thing.
- In conclusion, I want to eliminate AFD decisions like "delete because a needed target article does not yet exist" and to promote decisions like "someone needs to create at least a stub, and the AFD will not be closed until that is done" or "the AFD is closed with consensus that the topic should be kept until target article A has been created, and then it should be merged/redirected". -- do ncr am 21:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the lecture
Doncram but I know all about our deletion policies and alternatives to deletion (and OUTCOMES), which I regularly advocate myself. However, a school that does not exist or that cannot properly be identified as having existed can obviously not be a candidate for redirect - anywhere. Sorry.
Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (
talk) 18:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to
Lutheran High School Association. The school passes
Wikipedia:Verifiability. Here are two sources:
- Harrison, Sheena (2003-03-12).
"Volleyball team struggles through roller-coaster season".
The Detroit News. Archived from
the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
The article notes:
ROCHESTER HILLS -- It was a season full of extremes for the volleyball team at Lutheran High School Northwest.
"We've had some very big highs and very big lows," Coach Bridgett Ohlrich said.
With a 6-8-1 overall and 3-5 Metro Conference record, the Crusaders dealt with dramatic ups and downs all season. A loss to Harper Woods Lutheran High School East (15-2, 15-4) Jan. 28 dealt a blow to the team's morale.
-
"Valley pounds out win".
The Saginaw News. 2000-10-29. Archived from
the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
The article notes:
Wolgast broke a scoreless tie with a pair of second-half goals sending his team on to face the Grosse Pointe University Liggett district winner at 4:30 p.m. Wednesday at Lutheran High School East in Harper Woods.
- Harrison, Sheena (2003-03-12).
"Volleyball team struggles through roller-coaster season".
The Detroit News. Archived from
the original on 2016-09-19. Retrieved 2016-09-19.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.