- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus defaulting to keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. While there is a division of opinion regards a straight keep or merge it is clear that there is no consensus to delete this page. Further discussion regarding a possible merge can proceed on the relevant talk page. Ad Orientem ( talk) 00:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Litfield Farm ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Page created by a sockpuppet promoting people and places related to Staniforth. Outside of architecture interesting to the locale, it doesn't appear to have any significant events or news coverage related to it. LovelyLillith ( talk) 01:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. ― Abelmoschus Esculentus ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. ― Abelmoschus Esculentus ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep I note that this is a Grade II listed building. There is a list of Listed buildings in England, which contains lists of listed buildings by grade, and then by county and locality. However, there is no List of Grade II listed buildings in Derbyshire or any locality within it. If there was, I would probably say Merge to that list. But until that list does exist, I would say Keep this article. RebeccaGreen ( talk) 05:21, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Move to Grade II listed buildings in Derbyshire and start a list there. b ui dhe (formerly Catrìona) 05:57, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Listed building. Meets the critera of WP:GEOFEAT. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:57, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 15:58, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. There are 374,000 listed buildings in England and Wales. An assumption of notability for the 8% that are Grade I or Grade II* might be ok, but I really don't think it's reasonable to say the remaining 340,000+ that are Grade II are all 'inherently notable'. Looking through the archives of Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features), WP:GEOFEAT was added to before it was promoted to a guideline and this section did not achieve consensus. I don't think it meets WP:GNG: The official listing is one reliable source and refs 1 & 2 of the present article are both copies of this, but I can't find any others in a web search; ref 3 is not a reliable source and ref 4 is a WP:primary source. Maybe it's worth a sentence at most in the article for Ridgeway, Derbyshire but I don't think it's worth merging as that would unbalance that article. And I don't think we should keep an article on something just because it could be worth an entry in a list article that doesn't yet exist. -- Qwfp ( talk) 20:14, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Move to
Grade II listed buildings in Derbyshire and start a list there. I just did that, I moved it and it is now the start of a list article. It seems to me silly to keep discussing this AFD, just do it and let's all move on to something more important. This AFD should be closed "Move" to ratify that this has been done. --
Doncram (
talk)
23:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- I have moved it back. Please do not move articles while an AfD is underway. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:05, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- If merged or moved to a list, it should be Listed buildings in Eckington, Derbyshire - lists we already have are grade I or II* in a county or all grades in a city, town, civil parish or unparished area, only splitting further if a list becomes too long for one article. Peter James ( talk) 20:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sheldybett ( talk) 15:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sheldybett ( talk) 15:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Passes WP:GEOLAND. Andrew D. ( talk) 21:40, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note This article is not about the listed building, which is a farm house. It is about the farm, which is a settlement (it seems it
was once a hamlet). Sure, one notable thing about the farm is that it contains a listed farm house, but we certainly shouldn't redirect this to a list of buildings. We need to judge this by
WP:GEOLAND "Populated places without legal recognition" and if sources are insufficient redirect to
Ridgeway, Derbyshire, where it can be mentioned along with the other settlements already mentioned there, such as Ridgeway Moor and Highlane.--
Pontificalibus
14:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- A farm is not a settlement. It is a collection of buildings, one of which is listed. WP:GEOFEAT therefore applies. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 16:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Some of those collection of buildings are houses, let and sold seperately from the farmhouse. This is why sources refer to "Litfield" as well as "Litfield farm". The borderline between a
hamlet, an
estate and a "farm" can be an unclear one, but sources support this being a populated place.--
Pontificalibus
16:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- This is purely splitting hairs. A farm is usually understood as a farm, a complex of buildings, and is therefore covered by
WP:GEOFEAT and not
WP:GEOLAND. It doesn't matter whether only one of those buildings is listed for that to count. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, but as I said sources show there are a number of houses in addition to the farm house, and that it is refered to as a named place without the "farm" suffix.-- Pontificalibus 13:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note I have found a reliable source identifying Litfield as a hamlet and added this to the article. It seems the other neighbouring settlements now subsumed into Ridgeway such as Birley Hay, Ford and Highlane clung to their seperate identities into the late 19th century and so are retained on the first OS maps of the area, but Litfield seems to have been the smallest of these and by then was mapped as a farm.--
Pontificalibus
14:08, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Which seems to suggest that a separate
Litfield article might be in order (although only if it was ever a truly recognised place), but not that this article about a complex of buildings that includes a listed building should be merged. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sources clearly show that "Litfield Farm" in the 19th century consisted of a number of houses and so was still a settlement. I don't think it would be useful to have two articles on the same populated place, each covering different time periods. Much more logical to have a
Litfield farmhouse article for the listed building, but as I've said I don't beleive that would pass
WP:GNG.--
Pontificalibus
15:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Many large farms had multiple cottages for the workers. It doesn't make them a real settlement, any more than a university or a barracks, say, is a settlement. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
09:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- The only sources available show that occupants did not work on the farm. Regardless, we're going around circles because the fact is niether Litfield Farm, Litfield farmhouse nor Litfield are notable and should all be redirected to Ridgeway, Derbyshire.-- Pontificalibus 10:05, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Many large farms had multiple cottages for the workers. It doesn't make them a real settlement, any more than a university or a barracks, say, is a settlement. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
09:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sources clearly show that "Litfield Farm" in the 19th century consisted of a number of houses and so was still a settlement. I don't think it would be useful to have two articles on the same populated place, each covering different time periods. Much more logical to have a
Litfield farmhouse article for the listed building, but as I've said I don't beleive that would pass
WP:GNG.--
Pontificalibus
15:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Which seems to suggest that a separate
Litfield article might be in order (although only if it was ever a truly recognised place), but not that this article about a complex of buildings that includes a listed building should be merged. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- This is purely splitting hairs. A farm is usually understood as a farm, a complex of buildings, and is therefore covered by
WP:GEOFEAT and not
WP:GEOLAND. It doesn't matter whether only one of those buildings is listed for that to count. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Some of those collection of buildings are houses, let and sold seperately from the farmhouse. This is why sources refer to "Litfield" as well as "Litfield farm". The borderline between a
hamlet, an
estate and a "farm" can be an unclear one, but sources support this being a populated place.--
Pontificalibus
16:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Merge to Ridgeway, Derbyshire. Having searched for sources and examined maps, I conclude that this place fails WP:GNG and thus WP:GEOLAND, which says a redirect to the more "the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it" is warranted. Also, if it was renamed Litfield farmhouse to be about the listed building, that would also fail WP:GNG, and a merge of that to Ridgeway, Derbyshire would not be inappropriate.-- Pontificalibus 15:29, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep based on the above information regarding Wikipedia:GEOLAND. StaniforthHistorian ( talk) 15:19, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep It is essentially about the listed building, and therefore notable DGG ( talk ) 04:49, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus defaulting to keep and w/o prejudice to a future renomination. While there is a division of opinion regards a straight keep or merge it is clear that there is no consensus to delete this page. Further discussion regarding a possible merge can proceed on the relevant talk page. Ad Orientem ( talk) 00:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Litfield Farm ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Page created by a sockpuppet promoting people and places related to Staniforth. Outside of architecture interesting to the locale, it doesn't appear to have any significant events or news coverage related to it. LovelyLillith ( talk) 01:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. ― Abelmoschus Esculentus ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. ― Abelmoschus Esculentus ( talk • contribs) 03:31, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Weak keep I note that this is a Grade II listed building. There is a list of Listed buildings in England, which contains lists of listed buildings by grade, and then by county and locality. However, there is no List of Grade II listed buildings in Derbyshire or any locality within it. If there was, I would probably say Merge to that list. But until that list does exist, I would say Keep this article. RebeccaGreen ( talk) 05:21, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Move to Grade II listed buildings in Derbyshire and start a list there. b ui dhe (formerly Catrìona) 05:57, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Listed building. Meets the critera of WP:GEOFEAT. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 15:57, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 15:58, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. There are 374,000 listed buildings in England and Wales. An assumption of notability for the 8% that are Grade I or Grade II* might be ok, but I really don't think it's reasonable to say the remaining 340,000+ that are Grade II are all 'inherently notable'. Looking through the archives of Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features), WP:GEOFEAT was added to before it was promoted to a guideline and this section did not achieve consensus. I don't think it meets WP:GNG: The official listing is one reliable source and refs 1 & 2 of the present article are both copies of this, but I can't find any others in a web search; ref 3 is not a reliable source and ref 4 is a WP:primary source. Maybe it's worth a sentence at most in the article for Ridgeway, Derbyshire but I don't think it's worth merging as that would unbalance that article. And I don't think we should keep an article on something just because it could be worth an entry in a list article that doesn't yet exist. -- Qwfp ( talk) 20:14, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Move to
Grade II listed buildings in Derbyshire and start a list there. I just did that, I moved it and it is now the start of a list article. It seems to me silly to keep discussing this AFD, just do it and let's all move on to something more important. This AFD should be closed "Move" to ratify that this has been done. --
Doncram (
talk)
23:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- I have moved it back. Please do not move articles while an AfD is underway. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:05, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- If merged or moved to a list, it should be Listed buildings in Eckington, Derbyshire - lists we already have are grade I or II* in a county or all grades in a city, town, civil parish or unparished area, only splitting further if a list becomes too long for one article. Peter James ( talk) 20:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sheldybett ( talk) 15:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sheldybett ( talk) 15:17, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep Passes WP:GEOLAND. Andrew D. ( talk) 21:40, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note This article is not about the listed building, which is a farm house. It is about the farm, which is a settlement (it seems it
was once a hamlet). Sure, one notable thing about the farm is that it contains a listed farm house, but we certainly shouldn't redirect this to a list of buildings. We need to judge this by
WP:GEOLAND "Populated places without legal recognition" and if sources are insufficient redirect to
Ridgeway, Derbyshire, where it can be mentioned along with the other settlements already mentioned there, such as Ridgeway Moor and Highlane.--
Pontificalibus
14:00, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- A farm is not a settlement. It is a collection of buildings, one of which is listed. WP:GEOFEAT therefore applies. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 16:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Some of those collection of buildings are houses, let and sold seperately from the farmhouse. This is why sources refer to "Litfield" as well as "Litfield farm". The borderline between a
hamlet, an
estate and a "farm" can be an unclear one, but sources support this being a populated place.--
Pontificalibus
16:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- This is purely splitting hairs. A farm is usually understood as a farm, a complex of buildings, and is therefore covered by
WP:GEOFEAT and not
WP:GEOLAND. It doesn't matter whether only one of those buildings is listed for that to count. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, but as I said sources show there are a number of houses in addition to the farm house, and that it is refered to as a named place without the "farm" suffix.-- Pontificalibus 13:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Note I have found a reliable source identifying Litfield as a hamlet and added this to the article. It seems the other neighbouring settlements now subsumed into Ridgeway such as Birley Hay, Ford and Highlane clung to their seperate identities into the late 19th century and so are retained on the first OS maps of the area, but Litfield seems to have been the smallest of these and by then was mapped as a farm.--
Pontificalibus
14:08, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Which seems to suggest that a separate
Litfield article might be in order (although only if it was ever a truly recognised place), but not that this article about a complex of buildings that includes a listed building should be merged. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sources clearly show that "Litfield Farm" in the 19th century consisted of a number of houses and so was still a settlement. I don't think it would be useful to have two articles on the same populated place, each covering different time periods. Much more logical to have a
Litfield farmhouse article for the listed building, but as I've said I don't beleive that would pass
WP:GNG.--
Pontificalibus
15:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Many large farms had multiple cottages for the workers. It doesn't make them a real settlement, any more than a university or a barracks, say, is a settlement. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
09:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- The only sources available show that occupants did not work on the farm. Regardless, we're going around circles because the fact is niether Litfield Farm, Litfield farmhouse nor Litfield are notable and should all be redirected to Ridgeway, Derbyshire.-- Pontificalibus 10:05, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Many large farms had multiple cottages for the workers. It doesn't make them a real settlement, any more than a university or a barracks, say, is a settlement. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
09:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sources clearly show that "Litfield Farm" in the 19th century consisted of a number of houses and so was still a settlement. I don't think it would be useful to have two articles on the same populated place, each covering different time periods. Much more logical to have a
Litfield farmhouse article for the listed building, but as I've said I don't beleive that would pass
WP:GNG.--
Pontificalibus
15:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Which seems to suggest that a separate
Litfield article might be in order (although only if it was ever a truly recognised place), but not that this article about a complex of buildings that includes a listed building should be merged. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:54, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- This is purely splitting hairs. A farm is usually understood as a farm, a complex of buildings, and is therefore covered by
WP:GEOFEAT and not
WP:GEOLAND. It doesn't matter whether only one of those buildings is listed for that to count. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:49, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Some of those collection of buildings are houses, let and sold seperately from the farmhouse. This is why sources refer to "Litfield" as well as "Litfield farm". The borderline between a
hamlet, an
estate and a "farm" can be an unclear one, but sources support this being a populated place.--
Pontificalibus
16:38, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Merge to Ridgeway, Derbyshire. Having searched for sources and examined maps, I conclude that this place fails WP:GNG and thus WP:GEOLAND, which says a redirect to the more "the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it" is warranted. Also, if it was renamed Litfield farmhouse to be about the listed building, that would also fail WP:GNG, and a merge of that to Ridgeway, Derbyshire would not be inappropriate.-- Pontificalibus 15:29, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep based on the above information regarding Wikipedia:GEOLAND. StaniforthHistorian ( talk) 15:19, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Keep It is essentially about the listed building, and therefore notable DGG ( talk ) 04:49, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.