- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. The Bushranger One ping only 03:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
List of microbreweries
AfDs for this article:
- List of microbreweries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The creation of this list might have seamed a good idea at the time but in the US alone there are 25000 small breweries. See: Brewers Association. The subject of microbreweries is satisfied by the article microbreweries. This list has become unmanageable. Aspro ( talk) 17:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: The above figure appears to have one too many zeroes in it. The actual number is likely in the neighborhood of 2500. [1] mwalimu59 ( talk) 21:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Per WP:NOTPAPER there is no practical limit which prevents us from maintaining this list and we have many more larger list topics such as list of writers, list of minor planets, &c. Andrew ( talk) 06:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - It's a finite number. It's a big number, and a growing number, but Wikipedia is Not Paper, after all, and there is plenty of source material dealing with the topic in depth, including the trade papers Northwest Brewing News, Great Lakes Brewing News, Mid-Atlantic Brewing News, Rocky Mountain Brewing News, etc. "Microbrewery" is a defined concept, based on the level of output of the facility. Carrite ( talk) 19:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: If there was something in the WP guidelines to keep this, I would not have posted a AfD.
* Background: If we just take the US for example. This list overlaps with the List of breweries in the United States... and contravenes Mostly overlapping categories. Also, there is no good definition of Microbrewery. If we take the US situation for example: There are just 24 'big' brewers and ten times that number of small brewers.Mwalimu59 is right, as of 2013 brewer in the US number 2,538 Ref: Brewers Association. Big brewers are legally defined but small brewers are just that – smaller brewers. So this article does not add any thing useful. Even if this article was split up into <15000 barrels, <30K, <45K, <60k or divided up into regions it would still be 'overlapping' List of breweries in the United States. This is why we have guidelines to remove things that with the benefit of hind-sight are subjective, misleading, and unhelpful.-- Aspro ( talk) 20:38, 3 April 2014 (UTC) - Comment - For whatever reason, the discussion above was existent directly within the AfD log at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 April 2 ( diff page). I have moved the content to here, posted above ( diff page). NorthAmerica 1000 01:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
List of microbreweries
- List of microbreweries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Reason Overcatigration Aspro ( talk) 21:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. I think Aspro means "overcategorization", but that doesn't really seem to apply here. Looks like a perfectly reasonable list article.-- Brainy J ~✿~ ( talk) 15:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep a list of notable microbreweries seems reasonable and consistent with policy. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 18:05, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: If there was something in the WP guidelines to keep this, I would not have posted a AfD.
* Background: If we just take the US for example. This list overlaps with the List of breweries in the United States... and contravenes Mostly overlapping categories. Also, there is no good definition of Microbrewery. If we take the US situation for example: There are just 24 'big' brewers and ten times that number of small brewers.Mwalimu59 is right, as of 2013 brewer in the US number 2,538 Ref: Brewers Association. Big brewers are legally defined but small brewers are just that – smaller brewers. So this article does not add any thing useful. Even if this article was split up into <15000 barrels, <30K, <45K, <60k or divided up into regions it would still be 'overlapping' List of breweries in the United States. This is why we have guidelines to remove things that with the benefit of hind-sight are subjective, misleading, and unhelpful.-- Aspro ( talk) 20:38, 3 April 2014 (UTC) - keep This is a list article, it is not category so (misapplied) category rules have nothing to do with facts here. As a list, it serves a purpose that no category or regular article can. It includes microbreweries that do not yet have articles and so is more comprehensive than other choices. Hmains ( talk) 04:44, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- Merge to List of breweries in the United States. Microbreweries is a poorly defined term, which has now been overtaken by craft brewery. The intention in both terms is simply to differentiate from a handful of multinational breweries. As such, brewery. microbrewery and craft brewery are largely inter-changeable. More useful and helpful to differentiate the handful of multinational breweries. Though the microbrewery term originated in the UK, its not used there in the same way as it is used in the USA and Canada, nor is it used by other nations outside of North America. I haven't been through the list, but I would be surprised if there were many/any non-North American breweries listed. Would be more helpful, useful and informative to more clearly identify the list as what it actually is, rather than use a vague, poorly understood, marketing generated, and now out-dated term. Any Canadian breweries could be split off into List of breweries in Canada. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - A merge to List of breweries in the United States wouldn't be functional, because it is a global list. Examples of non-U.S. entries in the list include Dugges Ale och Porterbryggeri, Quidi Vidi Brewing Company, St Arnou and Yukon Brewing Company. NorthAmerica 1000 05:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. This is a valid list. The basis of the nomination appears to be a shift in terminology away from micro to craft. That however does not mean that this article should be deleted. If we have an article on microbreweries, then also having a list is completely within policy. An argument that there is no policy to support retention of this list is not supported by a policy is nonsense. We use references to clarify why something is on a list. So being a vague description is also not a reason to delete. If there references are there for this usage then we retain. Finally, this has nothing to do with categorization so the nomination is flawed on the face of it. If the sole issues is micro v craft, then that is a rename question and clearly not a reason to delete. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - It's a well-sourced list article limited to notable microbreweries, and also is in congruence with WP:NOTDUP relative to Category:Microbreweries and WP:LISTPURP as a functional navigation aid and valuable information source. NorthAmerica 1000 05:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. The Bushranger One ping only 03:53, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
List of microbreweries
AfDs for this article:
- List of microbreweries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The creation of this list might have seamed a good idea at the time but in the US alone there are 25000 small breweries. See: Brewers Association. The subject of microbreweries is satisfied by the article microbreweries. This list has become unmanageable. Aspro ( talk) 17:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: The above figure appears to have one too many zeroes in it. The actual number is likely in the neighborhood of 2500. [1] mwalimu59 ( talk) 21:46, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Per WP:NOTPAPER there is no practical limit which prevents us from maintaining this list and we have many more larger list topics such as list of writers, list of minor planets, &c. Andrew ( talk) 06:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - It's a finite number. It's a big number, and a growing number, but Wikipedia is Not Paper, after all, and there is plenty of source material dealing with the topic in depth, including the trade papers Northwest Brewing News, Great Lakes Brewing News, Mid-Atlantic Brewing News, Rocky Mountain Brewing News, etc. "Microbrewery" is a defined concept, based on the level of output of the facility. Carrite ( talk) 19:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: If there was something in the WP guidelines to keep this, I would not have posted a AfD.
* Background: If we just take the US for example. This list overlaps with the List of breweries in the United States... and contravenes Mostly overlapping categories. Also, there is no good definition of Microbrewery. If we take the US situation for example: There are just 24 'big' brewers and ten times that number of small brewers.Mwalimu59 is right, as of 2013 brewer in the US number 2,538 Ref: Brewers Association. Big brewers are legally defined but small brewers are just that – smaller brewers. So this article does not add any thing useful. Even if this article was split up into <15000 barrels, <30K, <45K, <60k or divided up into regions it would still be 'overlapping' List of breweries in the United States. This is why we have guidelines to remove things that with the benefit of hind-sight are subjective, misleading, and unhelpful.-- Aspro ( talk) 20:38, 3 April 2014 (UTC) - Comment - For whatever reason, the discussion above was existent directly within the AfD log at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 April 2 ( diff page). I have moved the content to here, posted above ( diff page). NorthAmerica 1000 01:52, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
List of microbreweries
- List of microbreweries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Reason Overcatigration Aspro ( talk) 21:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 23:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. I think Aspro means "overcategorization", but that doesn't really seem to apply here. Looks like a perfectly reasonable list article.-- Brainy J ~✿~ ( talk) 15:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep a list of notable microbreweries seems reasonable and consistent with policy. Candleabracadabra ( talk) 18:05, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: If there was something in the WP guidelines to keep this, I would not have posted a AfD.
* Background: If we just take the US for example. This list overlaps with the List of breweries in the United States... and contravenes Mostly overlapping categories. Also, there is no good definition of Microbrewery. If we take the US situation for example: There are just 24 'big' brewers and ten times that number of small brewers.Mwalimu59 is right, as of 2013 brewer in the US number 2,538 Ref: Brewers Association. Big brewers are legally defined but small brewers are just that – smaller brewers. So this article does not add any thing useful. Even if this article was split up into <15000 barrels, <30K, <45K, <60k or divided up into regions it would still be 'overlapping' List of breweries in the United States. This is why we have guidelines to remove things that with the benefit of hind-sight are subjective, misleading, and unhelpful.-- Aspro ( talk) 20:38, 3 April 2014 (UTC) - keep This is a list article, it is not category so (misapplied) category rules have nothing to do with facts here. As a list, it serves a purpose that no category or regular article can. It includes microbreweries that do not yet have articles and so is more comprehensive than other choices. Hmains ( talk) 04:44, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- Merge to List of breweries in the United States. Microbreweries is a poorly defined term, which has now been overtaken by craft brewery. The intention in both terms is simply to differentiate from a handful of multinational breweries. As such, brewery. microbrewery and craft brewery are largely inter-changeable. More useful and helpful to differentiate the handful of multinational breweries. Though the microbrewery term originated in the UK, its not used there in the same way as it is used in the USA and Canada, nor is it used by other nations outside of North America. I haven't been through the list, but I would be surprised if there were many/any non-North American breweries listed. Would be more helpful, useful and informative to more clearly identify the list as what it actually is, rather than use a vague, poorly understood, marketing generated, and now out-dated term. Any Canadian breweries could be split off into List of breweries in Canada. SilkTork ✔Tea time 14:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - A merge to List of breweries in the United States wouldn't be functional, because it is a global list. Examples of non-U.S. entries in the list include Dugges Ale och Porterbryggeri, Quidi Vidi Brewing Company, St Arnou and Yukon Brewing Company. NorthAmerica 1000 05:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. This is a valid list. The basis of the nomination appears to be a shift in terminology away from micro to craft. That however does not mean that this article should be deleted. If we have an article on microbreweries, then also having a list is completely within policy. An argument that there is no policy to support retention of this list is not supported by a policy is nonsense. We use references to clarify why something is on a list. So being a vague description is also not a reason to delete. If there references are there for this usage then we retain. Finally, this has nothing to do with categorization so the nomination is flawed on the face of it. If the sole issues is micro v craft, then that is a rename question and clearly not a reason to delete. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - It's a well-sourced list article limited to notable microbreweries, and also is in congruence with WP:NOTDUP relative to Category:Microbreweries and WP:LISTPURP as a functional navigation aid and valuable information source. NorthAmerica 1000 05:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.