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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. No consensus to Delete, and a consensus that while the article has structural issues that need fixing (title, scope, detail and referencing per Doncram's proposals), the subject is sufficiently notable to merit Keeping. (non-admin closure) Britishfinance ( talk) 01:18, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
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- List of large council estates in the UK ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
"Large" appears to be an arbitrary figure of 10,000, who is to say this is large? The article contains only two references, one of which would appear to negate the inclusion of the entry it is referencing since it says the Byker estate has, or had in 2007, a population of 9,500. A browse of a few entries on the list seems to show the majority of the time they link to a suburb of a town or city rather than an actual article about a council estate, and that the population is either not mentioned or the population of the entire suburb does not even meet the 10,000 limit even ignoring the fact that there is no evidence the entire suburb is a council estate. FDW777 ( talk) 16:46, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 16:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 16:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Tempted just to rename it to List of council estates in the UK instead of deletion. The lack of sourcing is a problem, but it could become a decent list, if someone put the time and effort into it. Failing that, then just delete per WP:TNT. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:56, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Mostly unsourced so the issue of WP:OR comes into play. Also the fact that almost all of the estates are non notable. Ajf773 ( talk) 19:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Sure, it is currently problematic to identify exact populations of each estate and hence also to determine exactly which ones are largest. But this can obviously be transformed to be more broad (move probably to List of council estates in the United Kingdom) and to be fully well-sourced (implicitly, by mentioning and linking to all the many individual articles in large Category:Housing estates in the United Kingdom). That category has many subcategories going down to individual estate articles, i dunno about 100? It doesn't need to use the word in its title, but the revised list should be understood to be a list of only "notable" council estates, i.e. the ones which have individual articles, which naturally includes the very largest ones, but also includes others famous or notorious for other reasons. It is too large to be included in Public housing in the United Kingdom and/or can be seen as a valid split out of that top-level article.
- Note that wp:CLNT gives us guidance that lists, categories, and navigation templates are complementary, and it is pretty much a corollary that it is okay/good to have a list-article corresponding to any valid category. A list-article has advantage that it can/should include footnotes, sensible overall introductory discussion, and summary information about its members. It also can/should include redlinks where it is known that another item is notable and needs an article, supported by footnote(s) establishing significance.
- We are obligated to seek wp:ATD alternatives to deletion, and here is a good one, so "Keep" with direction to modify in this way. -- Doncram ( talk) 00:50, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. I wouldn't mind reworking the list in this way, though I'd be glad to have help. I have constructed lots of big, completely valid/good list-articles; some aspects of developing them are easy for me now. -- Doncram ( talk) 00:53, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps to be presented in a sortable table, e.g. something like:
| Estate | Image | Dates | Location | Size (units) | Notes/Description | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Churchill Gardens |
.jpg)
|
1946-62 built |
Pimlico area of
Westminster,
London 51°29′13″N 0°08′24″W / 51.487°N 0.140°W |
1,600 | Designed by architects Powell and Moya to replace Victorian terraced houses extensively damaged during the Blitz; won RIBA London Architectural Bronze Medal (1950); model for many later projects. |
| 2 | Austin Village |
|
1917 built |
Northfield, Birmingham-adjacent 52°24′04″N 1°58′23″W / 52.401°N 1.973°W |
200 | Cedar prefabricated bungalows erected during the First World War to support Austin Motor Company's manufacture of tanks and aircraft. |
- Subject to improvements, of course, about definition of which places are deemed council estates, and otherwise. --
Doncram (
talk)
01:20, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- I did look at the alternatives listed at
WP:ATD, but not seemed particularly relevant. I would have no objection to that, as @
Lugnuts: has suggested something similar they obviously have no problem either. @
Doncram: if you want to rename the article and make it solely about notable council estates I'll be happy to withdraw the nomination unless @
Ajf773: objects?
FDW777 (
talk)
11:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, good. I kinda look forward to doing this and learning about these. It would be good to get other general and specific sourcing, besides what's in articles about the individual estates.
- It would be fine and convenient if Ajf773 returned and changed their !vote, but they certainly can't be forced to do so, and don't have to come back at all. No problem, we can wait out the rest of 7 days for the AFD to be closed. -- Doncram ( talk) 01:47, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
- I did look at the alternatives listed at
WP:ATD, but not seemed particularly relevant. I would have no objection to that, as @
Lugnuts: has suggested something similar they obviously have no problem either. @
Doncram: if you want to rename the article and make it solely about notable council estates I'll be happy to withdraw the nomination unless @
Ajf773: objects?
FDW777 (
talk)
11:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - so obviously notable I'm speechless. Ordinary editing can fix the issues noted or moving the list to a new name. Bearian ( talk) 17:57, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
- Who mentioned notability? FDW777 ( talk) 09:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- Notability is the only thing that's relevant in an AfD! -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:DEL#REASON begs to differ. FDW777 ( talk) 11:48, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- All are either related to notability or reasons for speedy deletion, not AfD. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Incorrect, as anyone capable of reading and understanding the list can see. I repeat that nobody has ever mentioned notability as a reason for deletion, other than Bearian. FDW777 ( talk) 14:27, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep a list of council estates although this isn't it. The current list is almost worthless, it is basically unreferenced, and links to many places like Huyton which is certainly not a council estate. I would advise that it's totally reworked to list actual council estates, perhaps starting with notable ones. The size criteria should be removed as it skews the list to London and other densley populated places whilst excluding notable estates in other parts of the country. ---- Pontificalibus 09:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 11:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 11:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep as List of council estates in the United Kingdom. The topic is clearly notable, but needs a major rewrite. And we generally avoid "UK". -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Council house makes it clear that we don't need to specify a country at all.---- Pontificalibus 14:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. No consensus to Delete, and a consensus that while the article has structural issues that need fixing (title, scope, detail and referencing per Doncram's proposals), the subject is sufficiently notable to merit Keeping. (non-admin closure) Britishfinance ( talk) 01:18, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of large council estates in the UK ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
"Large" appears to be an arbitrary figure of 10,000, who is to say this is large? The article contains only two references, one of which would appear to negate the inclusion of the entry it is referencing since it says the Byker estate has, or had in 2007, a population of 9,500. A browse of a few entries on the list seems to show the majority of the time they link to a suburb of a town or city rather than an actual article about a council estate, and that the population is either not mentioned or the population of the entire suburb does not even meet the 10,000 limit even ignoring the fact that there is no evidence the entire suburb is a council estate. FDW777 ( talk) 16:46, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 16:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 16:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Tempted just to rename it to List of council estates in the UK instead of deletion. The lack of sourcing is a problem, but it could become a decent list, if someone put the time and effort into it. Failing that, then just delete per WP:TNT. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:56, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Delete. Mostly unsourced so the issue of WP:OR comes into play. Also the fact that almost all of the estates are non notable. Ajf773 ( talk) 19:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep. Sure, it is currently problematic to identify exact populations of each estate and hence also to determine exactly which ones are largest. But this can obviously be transformed to be more broad (move probably to List of council estates in the United Kingdom) and to be fully well-sourced (implicitly, by mentioning and linking to all the many individual articles in large Category:Housing estates in the United Kingdom). That category has many subcategories going down to individual estate articles, i dunno about 100? It doesn't need to use the word in its title, but the revised list should be understood to be a list of only "notable" council estates, i.e. the ones which have individual articles, which naturally includes the very largest ones, but also includes others famous or notorious for other reasons. It is too large to be included in Public housing in the United Kingdom and/or can be seen as a valid split out of that top-level article.
- Note that wp:CLNT gives us guidance that lists, categories, and navigation templates are complementary, and it is pretty much a corollary that it is okay/good to have a list-article corresponding to any valid category. A list-article has advantage that it can/should include footnotes, sensible overall introductory discussion, and summary information about its members. It also can/should include redlinks where it is known that another item is notable and needs an article, supported by footnote(s) establishing significance.
- We are obligated to seek wp:ATD alternatives to deletion, and here is a good one, so "Keep" with direction to modify in this way. -- Doncram ( talk) 00:50, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. I wouldn't mind reworking the list in this way, though I'd be glad to have help. I have constructed lots of big, completely valid/good list-articles; some aspects of developing them are easy for me now. -- Doncram ( talk) 00:53, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps to be presented in a sortable table, e.g. something like:
| Estate | Image | Dates | Location | Size (units) | Notes/Description | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Churchill Gardens |
|
1946-62 built |
Pimlico area of
Westminster,
London 51°29′13″N 0°08′24″W / 51.487°N 0.140°W |
1,600 | Designed by architects Powell and Moya to replace Victorian terraced houses extensively damaged during the Blitz; won RIBA London Architectural Bronze Medal (1950); model for many later projects. |
| 2 | Austin Village |
|
1917 built |
Northfield, Birmingham-adjacent 52°24′04″N 1°58′23″W / 52.401°N 1.973°W |
200 | Cedar prefabricated bungalows erected during the First World War to support Austin Motor Company's manufacture of tanks and aircraft. |
- Subject to improvements, of course, about definition of which places are deemed council estates, and otherwise. --
Doncram (
talk)
01:20, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- I did look at the alternatives listed at
WP:ATD, but not seemed particularly relevant. I would have no objection to that, as @
Lugnuts: has suggested something similar they obviously have no problem either. @
Doncram: if you want to rename the article and make it solely about notable council estates I'll be happy to withdraw the nomination unless @
Ajf773: objects?
FDW777 (
talk)
11:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, good. I kinda look forward to doing this and learning about these. It would be good to get other general and specific sourcing, besides what's in articles about the individual estates.
- It would be fine and convenient if Ajf773 returned and changed their !vote, but they certainly can't be forced to do so, and don't have to come back at all. No problem, we can wait out the rest of 7 days for the AFD to be closed. -- Doncram ( talk) 01:47, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
- I did look at the alternatives listed at
WP:ATD, but not seemed particularly relevant. I would have no objection to that, as @
Lugnuts: has suggested something similar they obviously have no problem either. @
Doncram: if you want to rename the article and make it solely about notable council estates I'll be happy to withdraw the nomination unless @
Ajf773: objects?
FDW777 (
talk)
11:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - so obviously notable I'm speechless. Ordinary editing can fix the issues noted or moving the list to a new name. Bearian ( talk) 17:57, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
- Who mentioned notability? FDW777 ( talk) 09:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
- Notability is the only thing that's relevant in an AfD! -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:DEL#REASON begs to differ. FDW777 ( talk) 11:48, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- All are either related to notability or reasons for speedy deletion, not AfD. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Incorrect, as anyone capable of reading and understanding the list can see. I repeat that nobody has ever mentioned notability as a reason for deletion, other than Bearian. FDW777 ( talk) 14:27, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep a list of council estates although this isn't it. The current list is almost worthless, it is basically unreferenced, and links to many places like Huyton which is certainly not a council estate. I would advise that it's totally reworked to list actual council estates, perhaps starting with notable ones. The size criteria should be removed as it skews the list to London and other densley populated places whilst excluding notable estates in other parts of the country. ---- Pontificalibus 09:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 11:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 11:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Keep as List of council estates in the United Kingdom. The topic is clearly notable, but needs a major rewrite. And we generally avoid "UK". -- Necrothesp ( talk) 11:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- Council house makes it clear that we don't need to specify a country at all.---- Pontificalibus 14:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.