- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. postdlf ( talk) 18:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
List of ice hockey countries
- List of ice hockey countries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
There are hundreds of countries with or without rinks and ice hockey, and even now, it's not that good. Fails WP:HOCKEY and WP:COUNTRIES. AaronWikia ( talk) 15:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. No evidence that this topic is covered in reliable sources as a group. Unclear inclusion requirements: many of the countries listed don't appear to play ice hockey at all. Pburka ( talk) 01:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: I'd be inclined to advocate deletion, on the grounds that this is about as vague and useless a list as it comes (never mind the number of entries that state specifically that ice hockey isn't actually played there) -- would Bhutan be list-worthy as an "ice hockey" country if I had a pickup pond game with a buddy and the video went up on YouTube? -- but the nom hasn't actually proffered any valid rationale to delete. "It's not that good" is certainly not a valid reason, and WP:HOCKEY and WP:COUNTRIES are the pages for the associated WikiProjects; they don't in any way, shape or form constitute notability criteria. Ravenswing 02:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Provisional keep if proper criteria are specified and enforced, e.g. possessing a professional league or playing in international competitions, and rename something better ( List of ice hockey-playing countries?). Côte d'Ivoire gets on the list just for having an unused hockey rink??? Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)Delete. List of members of the International Ice Hockey Federation serves essentially the same purpose, but infinitely better. Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)- Weak keep if fixed up. There is overlap with articles such as Ice hockey in Africa and articles on ice hockey in individual countries. This list could be edited and links provided to existing articles that cover continents and countries: that would fulfil a legitimate purpose as navigation. I'm concerned that redirecting it to List of members of the International Ice Hockey Federation will obscure information on some countries which may have played hockey or play hockey but are not members of the federation. Although I certainly agree there's no sense in duplicating information on countries which are active in the IIHF. -- Colapeninsula ( talk) 10:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - As far as I'm concerned, such a list serves a useful purpose and concisely conveys a plethora of information on worldwide hockey. While I will concur that the sourcing is sub par at best and that most of the countries where hockey is a total unknown (Burkina Faso, Maldives, etc.) should be removed, I wouldn't advocate for deleting the entire article. I also agree with Colapeninsula that the potential for losing valuable information exists were the article to be deleted. For instance, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are hockey-playing countries - albeit on a small scale - but as neither country has joined the IIHF, the details presented on the page would disappear from the wiki. Many such claims, as with the aforementioned countries, are easily sourceable and I have the requisite knowledge to locate said sources. But just as note, the SIHR has (or had) profiles detailing "all" (non-hockey countries included) countries from the letters A-E. So it could serve as a useful resource for some of the lesser-known countries where activities may exist in some form. -- Hockeyben (talk - contribs) 14:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
*Comment. It's a bit obscured, but both Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are listed in the last template as significant non-members. Perhaps listing the non-member countries in the template in a new section or in a See also section would work. I just don't like having two lists with that much overlap. Clarityfiend ( talk) 22:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Delete - This is why 64.4.93.100 keeps getting rid of these countries with no ice rinks or ice hockey. AaronWikia ( talk) 12:26, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Because countries with no ice rinks or ice hockey are not ice hockey countries; not because the page must be deleted. 64.4.93.100 ( talk) 17:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- As the nom, it is already assumed that you desire for the article to be deleted, thus including a Delete vote here is unnecessary. Other than that I agree with the IP. -- Hockeyben (talk - contribs) 18:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Clean up and keep. Here's what I now propose. First, rename List of countries where ice hockey is played. Second, create a section for the IIHF, with a brief summary and link to List of members of the International Ice Hockey Federation. Third, in a section titled say "Non-IIHF members", list the other countries, but exclude those with no business being on this list (e.g. that hockey superpower Côte d'Ivoire). Clarityfiend ( talk) 10:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - per the reasons given by Clarityfiend and Hockeyben. Dolovis ( talk) 17:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
*Strong delete - Clarityfiend, what do you mean "List of countries where ice hockey is played?".
AaronWikia (
talk) 18:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- You cannot keep voting "Delete;" please stop doing that. You also still haven't presented valid grounds upon which deletion can be considered. Ravenswing 19:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Countries where the sport is played on some organized basis, e.g. a league, federation, etc. Clarityfiend ( talk) 20:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Fascinating discussion and a darn good example of why I quit editing on here. It appears that AaronWikia in fact created this article, made most of the edits, got into an edit war, blanked the page and THEN decided to nominate it for deletion when he didn't get his way. In some form, this article seems to serve a purpose but I agree that the term 'Ice hockey countries' is misleading. It must be fixed to keep, otherwise, in it's present form I believe it will continue to generate controversy. MiracleMat ( talk) 10:23, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep: as bad faith nomination. Nice catch, MiracleMat; it didn't occur to me to look over the article history. It also prompted me to visit the nom's talk page, where (a bit to my embarrassment) I found a prod which I'd myself filed for another of the nom's articles that he'd deprodded with the classic edit summary "You can't proposed articles for deletion! >:()", followed by a swift and sure AfD, for an ice hockey "federation" that didn't actually exist. Ravenswing 22:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - It says "Permission error", that means I cannot delete the page without permission. What should I do? AaronWikia ( talk) 22:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Reply: You do nothing, is what you do; once created, the article isn't yours. Ravenswing 22:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. postdlf ( talk) 18:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
List of ice hockey countries
- List of ice hockey countries ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
There are hundreds of countries with or without rinks and ice hockey, and even now, it's not that good. Fails WP:HOCKEY and WP:COUNTRIES. AaronWikia ( talk) 15:50, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. No evidence that this topic is covered in reliable sources as a group. Unclear inclusion requirements: many of the countries listed don't appear to play ice hockey at all. Pburka ( talk) 01:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: I'd be inclined to advocate deletion, on the grounds that this is about as vague and useless a list as it comes (never mind the number of entries that state specifically that ice hockey isn't actually played there) -- would Bhutan be list-worthy as an "ice hockey" country if I had a pickup pond game with a buddy and the video went up on YouTube? -- but the nom hasn't actually proffered any valid rationale to delete. "It's not that good" is certainly not a valid reason, and WP:HOCKEY and WP:COUNTRIES are the pages for the associated WikiProjects; they don't in any way, shape or form constitute notability criteria. Ravenswing 02:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Provisional keep if proper criteria are specified and enforced, e.g. possessing a professional league or playing in international competitions, and rename something better ( List of ice hockey-playing countries?). Côte d'Ivoire gets on the list just for having an unused hockey rink??? Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)Delete. List of members of the International Ice Hockey Federation serves essentially the same purpose, but infinitely better. Clarityfiend ( talk) 05:27, 25 June 2014 (UTC)- Weak keep if fixed up. There is overlap with articles such as Ice hockey in Africa and articles on ice hockey in individual countries. This list could be edited and links provided to existing articles that cover continents and countries: that would fulfil a legitimate purpose as navigation. I'm concerned that redirecting it to List of members of the International Ice Hockey Federation will obscure information on some countries which may have played hockey or play hockey but are not members of the federation. Although I certainly agree there's no sense in duplicating information on countries which are active in the IIHF. -- Colapeninsula ( talk) 10:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - As far as I'm concerned, such a list serves a useful purpose and concisely conveys a plethora of information on worldwide hockey. While I will concur that the sourcing is sub par at best and that most of the countries where hockey is a total unknown (Burkina Faso, Maldives, etc.) should be removed, I wouldn't advocate for deleting the entire article. I also agree with Colapeninsula that the potential for losing valuable information exists were the article to be deleted. For instance, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are hockey-playing countries - albeit on a small scale - but as neither country has joined the IIHF, the details presented on the page would disappear from the wiki. Many such claims, as with the aforementioned countries, are easily sourceable and I have the requisite knowledge to locate said sources. But just as note, the SIHR has (or had) profiles detailing "all" (non-hockey countries included) countries from the letters A-E. So it could serve as a useful resource for some of the lesser-known countries where activities may exist in some form. -- Hockeyben (talk - contribs) 14:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
*Comment. It's a bit obscured, but both Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan are listed in the last template as significant non-members. Perhaps listing the non-member countries in the template in a new section or in a See also section would work. I just don't like having two lists with that much overlap. Clarityfiend ( talk) 22:48, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Delete - This is why 64.4.93.100 keeps getting rid of these countries with no ice rinks or ice hockey. AaronWikia ( talk) 12:26, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Because countries with no ice rinks or ice hockey are not ice hockey countries; not because the page must be deleted. 64.4.93.100 ( talk) 17:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- As the nom, it is already assumed that you desire for the article to be deleted, thus including a Delete vote here is unnecessary. Other than that I agree with the IP. -- Hockeyben (talk - contribs) 18:06, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
- Clean up and keep. Here's what I now propose. First, rename List of countries where ice hockey is played. Second, create a section for the IIHF, with a brief summary and link to List of members of the International Ice Hockey Federation. Third, in a section titled say "Non-IIHF members", list the other countries, but exclude those with no business being on this list (e.g. that hockey superpower Côte d'Ivoire). Clarityfiend ( talk) 10:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - per the reasons given by Clarityfiend and Hockeyben. Dolovis ( talk) 17:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
*Strong delete - Clarityfiend, what do you mean "List of countries where ice hockey is played?".
AaronWikia (
talk) 18:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- You cannot keep voting "Delete;" please stop doing that. You also still haven't presented valid grounds upon which deletion can be considered. Ravenswing 19:39, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Countries where the sport is played on some organized basis, e.g. a league, federation, etc. Clarityfiend ( talk) 20:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Fascinating discussion and a darn good example of why I quit editing on here. It appears that AaronWikia in fact created this article, made most of the edits, got into an edit war, blanked the page and THEN decided to nominate it for deletion when he didn't get his way. In some form, this article seems to serve a purpose but I agree that the term 'Ice hockey countries' is misleading. It must be fixed to keep, otherwise, in it's present form I believe it will continue to generate controversy. MiracleMat ( talk) 10:23, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep: as bad faith nomination. Nice catch, MiracleMat; it didn't occur to me to look over the article history. It also prompted me to visit the nom's talk page, where (a bit to my embarrassment) I found a prod which I'd myself filed for another of the nom's articles that he'd deprodded with the classic edit summary "You can't proposed articles for deletion! >:()", followed by a swift and sure AfD, for an ice hockey "federation" that didn't actually exist. Ravenswing 22:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - It says "Permission error", that means I cannot delete the page without permission. What should I do? AaronWikia ( talk) 22:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- Reply: You do nothing, is what you do; once created, the article isn't yours. Ravenswing 22:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.