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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There doesn't seem to be any firm consensus one way on the other with this - indeed, it is fairly typical for list articles of this type to close in this manner. Indeed, WP:NOTESAL states "There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y") or what other criteria may justify the notability of stand-alone lists". Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC) reply

List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario

List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Unnecessary and WP:INDISCRIMINATE list of all educational institutions -- primary, secondary and post-secondary -- located in one particular district of a city. We don't, and shouldn't, have comparable lists for Etobicoke or North York or East York or the Core, and there's no discernible reason why Scarborough should get special treatment. Bearcat ( talk) 16:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
I apologize, but the Etobicoke list certainly didn't turn up when I looked for one to see if there were any comparables or not. Bearcat ( talk) 02:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. It is a surprisingly long list of schools to be located in one "neighborhood" of Toronto. Hmm, it seems Scarborough, Toronto is a former city, itself. This could easily be suitable for a section on Education in its article....hmm, Scarborough, Toronto#Education exists as a section, and this list was apparently split out of there for being too long. Hmm, I don't really want to second-guess the decision to split it out, because it is a big chunk of perfectly valid material that seems perhaps too long to keep in the Scarborough article. An alternative to keeping which could perhaps be acceptable would be to force "merge" it back in, but why do that? Would the deletion nominator prefer that it be renamed somehow? I am sure that Education sections in other cities must have been split out too, e.g. List of Baltimore City Public Schools and others in Category:Education's subcategories by geography. -- do ncr am 21:20, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Being a former city is irrelevant to whether a standalone list of every individual school in it is necessary or not — it's not a current city, which is what matters. Bearcat ( talk) 02:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC) reply
If these divisions don't make sense for this purpose, the categories should be listed at CFD to be upmerged as well. I suspect all of the included articles are already in more specific categories, such as Category:High schools in Toronto. postdlf ( talk) 14:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Map of Scarborough in red, within Toronto, from Scarborough, Toronto article
I'm not going to express an opinion on keeping or deleting here, but I do want to comment on the point about being a former vs current city. WP:NTEMP argues that the current status doesn't matter. If Scarborough were still a city, would you then be arguing to keep? If so, then arguing to delete just because it's no longer a city seems inconsistent with WP:NTEMP. On the other hand Category:Education in Scarborough, Toronto would seem to cover this adequately, just like Category:Schools in the Bronx, Category:Schools in Brooklyn, etc. -- RoySmith (talk) 12:28, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply
It's not longer a city. It's also no longer a borough, or a township. Was it a town at one point? What it is now, rather than being a township of York county, is a district of the City of Toronto - boundaries unchanged. And it still has a community council, currently with ten wards, and ten councillors who meeting almost monthly. See here. Nfitz ( talk) 07:30, 6 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. There is no policy or guideline anywhere saying that "Education" cannot be discussed in an article about a place, despite the place being included in some other larger place. Scarborough is apparently a populated place of 625,000 persons in 2011 and it seems especially appropriate to have some coverage about Education in a place of that size. This AFD seems to be about content of the Scarborough article, in effect, as the list-article appears to have been split out from it in 2008. There was then immediately some back and forth about text about two private high schools which both claimed to be the oldest in Scarborough (text was moved from the split-out article to the Education section in the Scarborough article, where it remains). Actually, it seems to me that the list-article would better be framed as the "main" article, and include everything in the Education section of the Scarborough article plus more so that the section is a summary, and then use a template:main link from the Education article rather than a "see also" link. I have given notice of this AFD just now at the Talk page of the Scarborough article. -- do ncr am 17:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • There's no requirement that it be especially special education there. It's a matter of size of the Scarborough article. There is no rule limiting size of what can be covered, and some editors have chosen to cover a lot about education/schools there, and then it is reasonable to split it out. -- do ncr am 04:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I think it's just a list. You could have a list in the Scarborough article to the schools that do have articles. The rest of the list is of no value to an encyclopedia. Alaney2k ( talk) 18:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  14:24, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - I think the editors in and around Toronto need to consider how (or whether) to list all schools in the city. There ought to be some consistency across the former municipalities that I don't see - for example I found nothing for East York, and "List of educational institutions in Toronto" redirects to Education in Toronto. Keeping and maintaining a list of elementary schools is a big task that I wouldn't recommend - in my opinion maintaining a list of secondary-level schools and higher is reasonable. I'm leaning towards a 'delete' vote for the list in question, but I don't feel strongly enough to provide more than this comment. PK T(alk) 18:43, 31 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Actually, PKT has a good point. I think probably the better approach is to have lists by school district, in school district articles which would not be questioned, at least for public schools. What are the facts about school districts, is there one huge Toronto School District? Is there a separate school district for Scarborough? The Scarborough article could state simply that education is covered by schools in School District X and School District Y, and then there'd be no need for public schools to be covered in a separate Education article. If a bunch of the private schools are part of, say, a Catholic archdiocese, those ones might be consolidated there. -- do ncr am 01:05, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Specifically, many/most of the listed schools could be listed instead in what seem to be the "District" articles:
I am really not familiar with how all the institutes work, what they are part of, but if a Canadian would take on the task of merging the lists of schools to the relevant district articles, that could be a good resolution here (essentially "Merge"). Can anyone do that? -- do ncr am 01:11, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
P.S. I don't immediately see a list of the Toronto District School Board schools, but i do find List of schools in the Toronto Catholic District School Board, which presents just a bare list without indicating addresses or neighborhoods or anything else about its named schools. Perhaps "located in Scarborough" could be added where appropriate. The need for a separate "Education" article for Scarborough is eliminated if Scarborough location is noted for all these. -- do ncr am 01:17, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Hang on Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and Toronto Catholic District School Board (TCDSB)'s borders both align with the new(ish) City of Toronto but CSV (French public board) is an amalgamation of 6 old boards - only one ( CEFCUT) was in Toronto; the other 5 cover the entire Southwestern Ontario, Niagara Peninsula, Hamilton, the rest of the GTA outside of Toronto, and a surprising chunk of Central Ontario. The French Catholic Board ( CSDCCS) is a bit more limited, but still covers most of the entire Golden Horseshoe and some of the surrounding counties. I don't know what the solution is, but combining all the boards together makes no geographical sense, or else we'll end up with simply an article for the entire Southern Ontario. Nfitz ( talk) 16:58, 6 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 19:07, 5 September 2017 (UTC) reply
I nominate User:Nfitz to fix the situation! The main editing needed, as far as I can tell, is to modify several school district articles to be sure they list their Scarborough-located schools (and identify them as being in Scarborough). The school district articles are fine (they certainly should not be merged) and can include partial or complete lists of their schools. Then the educational institutions in Scarborough article can be merged back into the Scarborough article, which should just include summary mentions such as (these are made up numbers) "Scarborough has 8 primary schools and 3 middle schools and 2 high schools in the Toronto Catholic School District", etc. Please someone close this with affirmation of Nfitz's task assignment, before they can decline! -- do ncr am 21:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J 947( c) ( m) 04:49, 7 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Nfitz mentioned elsewhere that they in fact do not agree with my suggestion, which is okay. Having to do in part with fact that Scarborough has continuing coherence/recognition, while other former towns/cities merged into Toronto do not, but I may not have understood. This topic is beyond my ken, really, and I won't comment further. Good luck in closing this, whomever. -- do ncr am 18:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_educational_institutions_in_Scarborough,_Ontario&oldid=1138009393"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There doesn't seem to be any firm consensus one way on the other with this - indeed, it is fairly typical for list articles of this type to close in this manner. Indeed, WP:NOTESAL states "There is no present consensus for how to assess the notability of more complex and cross-categorization lists (such as "Lists of X of Y") or what other criteria may justify the notability of stand-alone lists". Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:16, 15 September 2017 (UTC) reply

List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario

List of educational institutions in Scarborough, Ontario (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Unnecessary and WP:INDISCRIMINATE list of all educational institutions -- primary, secondary and post-secondary -- located in one particular district of a city. We don't, and shouldn't, have comparable lists for Etobicoke or North York or East York or the Core, and there's no discernible reason why Scarborough should get special treatment. Bearcat ( talk) 16:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:02, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
I apologize, but the Etobicoke list certainly didn't turn up when I looked for one to see if there were any comparables or not. Bearcat ( talk) 02:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Keep. It is a surprisingly long list of schools to be located in one "neighborhood" of Toronto. Hmm, it seems Scarborough, Toronto is a former city, itself. This could easily be suitable for a section on Education in its article....hmm, Scarborough, Toronto#Education exists as a section, and this list was apparently split out of there for being too long. Hmm, I don't really want to second-guess the decision to split it out, because it is a big chunk of perfectly valid material that seems perhaps too long to keep in the Scarborough article. An alternative to keeping which could perhaps be acceptable would be to force "merge" it back in, but why do that? Would the deletion nominator prefer that it be renamed somehow? I am sure that Education sections in other cities must have been split out too, e.g. List of Baltimore City Public Schools and others in Category:Education's subcategories by geography. -- do ncr am 21:20, 22 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Being a former city is irrelevant to whether a standalone list of every individual school in it is necessary or not — it's not a current city, which is what matters. Bearcat ( talk) 02:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC) reply
If these divisions don't make sense for this purpose, the categories should be listed at CFD to be upmerged as well. I suspect all of the included articles are already in more specific categories, such as Category:High schools in Toronto. postdlf ( talk) 14:22, 23 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Map of Scarborough in red, within Toronto, from Scarborough, Toronto article
I'm not going to express an opinion on keeping or deleting here, but I do want to comment on the point about being a former vs current city. WP:NTEMP argues that the current status doesn't matter. If Scarborough were still a city, would you then be arguing to keep? If so, then arguing to delete just because it's no longer a city seems inconsistent with WP:NTEMP. On the other hand Category:Education in Scarborough, Toronto would seem to cover this adequately, just like Category:Schools in the Bronx, Category:Schools in Brooklyn, etc. -- RoySmith (talk) 12:28, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply
It's not longer a city. It's also no longer a borough, or a township. Was it a town at one point? What it is now, rather than being a township of York county, is a district of the City of Toronto - boundaries unchanged. And it still has a community council, currently with ten wards, and ten councillors who meeting almost monthly. See here. Nfitz ( talk) 07:30, 6 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment. There is no policy or guideline anywhere saying that "Education" cannot be discussed in an article about a place, despite the place being included in some other larger place. Scarborough is apparently a populated place of 625,000 persons in 2011 and it seems especially appropriate to have some coverage about Education in a place of that size. This AFD seems to be about content of the Scarborough article, in effect, as the list-article appears to have been split out from it in 2008. There was then immediately some back and forth about text about two private high schools which both claimed to be the oldest in Scarborough (text was moved from the split-out article to the Education section in the Scarborough article, where it remains). Actually, it seems to me that the list-article would better be framed as the "main" article, and include everything in the Education section of the Scarborough article plus more so that the section is a summary, and then use a template:main link from the Education article rather than a "see also" link. I have given notice of this AFD just now at the Talk page of the Scarborough article. -- do ncr am 17:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • There's no requirement that it be especially special education there. It's a matter of size of the Scarborough article. There is no rule limiting size of what can be covered, and some editors have chosen to cover a lot about education/schools there, and then it is reasonable to split it out. -- do ncr am 04:46, 26 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Delete I think it's just a list. You could have a list in the Scarborough article to the schools that do have articles. The rest of the list is of no value to an encyclopedia. Alaney2k ( talk) 18:35, 25 August 2017 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  14:24, 30 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Comment - I think the editors in and around Toronto need to consider how (or whether) to list all schools in the city. There ought to be some consistency across the former municipalities that I don't see - for example I found nothing for East York, and "List of educational institutions in Toronto" redirects to Education in Toronto. Keeping and maintaining a list of elementary schools is a big task that I wouldn't recommend - in my opinion maintaining a list of secondary-level schools and higher is reasonable. I'm leaning towards a 'delete' vote for the list in question, but I don't feel strongly enough to provide more than this comment. PK T(alk) 18:43, 31 August 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Actually, PKT has a good point. I think probably the better approach is to have lists by school district, in school district articles which would not be questioned, at least for public schools. What are the facts about school districts, is there one huge Toronto School District? Is there a separate school district for Scarborough? The Scarborough article could state simply that education is covered by schools in School District X and School District Y, and then there'd be no need for public schools to be covered in a separate Education article. If a bunch of the private schools are part of, say, a Catholic archdiocese, those ones might be consolidated there. -- do ncr am 01:05, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
  • Specifically, many/most of the listed schools could be listed instead in what seem to be the "District" articles:
I am really not familiar with how all the institutes work, what they are part of, but if a Canadian would take on the task of merging the lists of schools to the relevant district articles, that could be a good resolution here (essentially "Merge"). Can anyone do that? -- do ncr am 01:11, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
P.S. I don't immediately see a list of the Toronto District School Board schools, but i do find List of schools in the Toronto Catholic District School Board, which presents just a bare list without indicating addresses or neighborhoods or anything else about its named schools. Perhaps "located in Scarborough" could be added where appropriate. The need for a separate "Education" article for Scarborough is eliminated if Scarborough location is noted for all these. -- do ncr am 01:17, 3 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Hang on Toronto District School Board (TDSB) and Toronto Catholic District School Board (TCDSB)'s borders both align with the new(ish) City of Toronto but CSV (French public board) is an amalgamation of 6 old boards - only one ( CEFCUT) was in Toronto; the other 5 cover the entire Southwestern Ontario, Niagara Peninsula, Hamilton, the rest of the GTA outside of Toronto, and a surprising chunk of Central Ontario. The French Catholic Board ( CSDCCS) is a bit more limited, but still covers most of the entire Golden Horseshoe and some of the surrounding counties. I don't know what the solution is, but combining all the boards together makes no geographical sense, or else we'll end up with simply an article for the entire Southern Ontario. Nfitz ( talk) 16:58, 6 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal ( talk) 19:07, 5 September 2017 (UTC) reply
I nominate User:Nfitz to fix the situation! The main editing needed, as far as I can tell, is to modify several school district articles to be sure they list their Scarborough-located schools (and identify them as being in Scarborough). The school district articles are fine (they certainly should not be merged) and can include partial or complete lists of their schools. Then the educational institutions in Scarborough article can be merged back into the Scarborough article, which should just include summary mentions such as (these are made up numbers) "Scarborough has 8 primary schools and 3 middle schools and 2 high schools in the Toronto Catholic School District", etc. Please someone close this with affirmation of Nfitz's task assignment, before they can decline! -- do ncr am 21:12, 6 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, J 947( c) ( m) 04:49, 7 September 2017 (UTC) reply
Nfitz mentioned elsewhere that they in fact do not agree with my suggestion, which is okay. Having to do in part with fact that Scarborough has continuing coherence/recognition, while other former towns/cities merged into Toronto do not, but I may not have understood. This topic is beyond my ken, really, and I won't comment further. Good luck in closing this, whomever. -- do ncr am 18:51, 7 September 2017 (UTC) reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_educational_institutions_in_Scarborough,_Ontario&oldid=1138009393"

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