- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 06:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
List of Grand Theft Auto V characters
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Grand Theft Auto V characters ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
It's important for context first of all to read over last month's AfD involving all prior series entries' character list articles, where consensus was to delete/redirect to the relevant game's main article. This article was mentioned there, but it was suggested that what we have here is more substantiative and that any potential AfD for this page be conducted separately. So, I disagree with the first notion but agree with the second, and here we are. Much of the content this article hinges itself on is copy-pasted directly from Development of Grand Theft Auto V. If we were to subtract that from the article, we'd be left with a crufty list that fails WP:N and WP:VGSCOPE #5 and #6. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 14:01, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 14:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 14:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Jovanmilic97 ( talk) 09:44, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. This article definitely has more substance than those in the aforementioned AfD, but still not enough to justify its existence. It has 18 sections for different characters—four of these include commentary on the character development, and after some research I think only three more (Lester, Jimmy, Tracey) have the potential for minor expansion. A list of seven characters (of which two are considered "supporting" and three are copied directly from the development article) simply fails to stand on its own per WP:LISTN, and the other 12 sections are just pure WP:PLOT. – Rhain ☔ 00:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @ Rhain: If consensus heads this way, we can add those tid-bits about other characters to the Development article. I have the sources saved. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 15:41, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Plenty of TV shows, books, and games have character lists on Wikipedia. GTA V is the second best selling game of all time. If any game deserves a list of characters, its this one. Quick searches suggest that there have been plenty of articles written about characters in this game. If we delete this, lets delete every character list off this website. Bluedude588 ( talk) 14:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @ Bluedude588: Saying that WP:OTHERSTUFF exists doesn't make a compelling argument. How are game sales relevant? If you can find sourcing that expounds on the character development, design and/or reception of multiple GTA V characters—not just in-universe, crufty plot details—and if that provides enough content to merit ( WP:LISTN) an entire article, that will lend your argument more weight. As far as my research has taken me (not to stroke my ego, but I have 2 FA's, a GA and a FL specific to the GTA V topic), it isn't there. There's plenty of coverage on the three leads but that's not enough to hang an entire article for all the characters on. Trevor Philips meets WP:GNG (the other two, perhaps not) and we already have the relevant analysis at the Development article already. Lists of TV/film/game characters should have established notability if there has been commentary from high-quality, reliable sources ( WP:V) such that it's necessary to branch out from a parent article. If they don't, this is not the forum for an article about them. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 15:20, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. Would it be appropriate to convert the article into something like "List of Grand Theft Auto V protagonists"? These three do appear to have received some degree of coverage in regard to development and reception. If you argue that what we have just enough to merge the protagonists' individual developments to Development of Grand Theft Auto V, I would favour merger and deletion, obviously (deletion instead of redirection to avoid IP edit war standoffs). Everything else in the article, from "Central characters" down, is entirely in-universe (with the exception of one line about Ron, sourced to a local newspaper) and not worth keeping, regardless of the outcome of this AfD. IceWelder [ ✉] 17:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
IceWelder: The information in the list regarding Michael and Franklin actually already exists over at
the development article—it was copied directly from there to here—so there's no need to merge anything else. The protagonists article is not a bad idea, but with all of the information already existing elsewhere (not to mention that one of the three protagonists
has their own article), I'm not sure it would work. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I double-checked and indeed, the "Creation and conception" section in this article is merely a poorer (older?) version of the "Story and character development" in the article about the development as a whole, with some lines ripped out and moved to the individual characters' sections. If the article is only kept alive through a copy-paste from another article, it might as well be deleted. IceWelder [ ✉] 07:44, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
IceWelder: The information in the list regarding Michael and Franklin actually already exists over at
the development article—it was copied directly from there to here—so there's no need to merge anything else. The protagonists article is not a bad idea, but with all of the information already existing elsewhere (not to mention that one of the three protagonists
has their own article), I'm not sure it would work. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Keep. I particpated in the two previous AfDs related to Rockstar Games' character lists ( 1, 2) and !voted for them to be redirected to their main article. However, this game is the second best selling video game and I am certain enough coverage is out there for this be fleshed out. I am going to start improving the list with better sourcing to see what can be done. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 18:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've come back to this article many times over the years and have never been able to find anything substantial enough to stop it from being a massive
retelling of the plot, but I hope that you can prove otherwise. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Spy-cicle: Are you able to provide an update with how you're going? You said you would find some better sourcing and improve the article, but save for
tweaking the lead, you haven't made any substantive changes yet. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
09:20, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I was busier with other things than expected, but I will see what I can do in a over the coming days. (I was just about to publish this edit but I realised has been 7 days since its nomination I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
01:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold, could I suggest then that perhaps the issued raised about the article are insurmountable in the context of this AfD? I'd love to see a situation where it was possible to rescue the article but from my perspective, it doesn't seem that way. Your thoughts? —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
02:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a
WP:TNT situation? If so, I do see your point there are large part with just plot infomation (I mean the amount of detail on a small side character like Lazlow is prime example of that). I mean I suppose it could be sent back to draft where there are no time limits to rework/expand the list. Though I do agree with others that there is a fair bit of coverage of Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton but indivdually less than Trevor Phillips. Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
15:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not exactly, no. I'm suggesting that if the sourcing existed in the first place, it wouldn't have to take an AfD to rescue the page. You're welcome of course to develop further in draft space, just be wary that you would need to establish a list that is substantial enough to be notable without violating
VGSCOPE 5/6. As I've said, I think this would be infeasible, but if you think you can prove me wrong with a draft, please do so. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
15:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Grand Theft Auto V. Enough RS coverage may be out there to keep this list but within the time looking I was not able to find it and at the moment it is mostly WP:PLOT. I might work on a draft in the future if I get enough time. Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton should also be redirected back to Grand Theft Auto V. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 09:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not exactly, no. I'm suggesting that if the sourcing existed in the first place, it wouldn't have to take an AfD to rescue the page. You're welcome of course to develop further in draft space, just be wary that you would need to establish a list that is substantial enough to be notable without violating
VGSCOPE 5/6. As I've said, I think this would be infeasible, but if you think you can prove me wrong with a draft, please do so. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
15:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a
WP:TNT situation? If so, I do see your point there are large part with just plot infomation (I mean the amount of detail on a small side character like Lazlow is prime example of that). I mean I suppose it could be sent back to draft where there are no time limits to rework/expand the list. Though I do agree with others that there is a fair bit of coverage of Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton but indivdually less than Trevor Phillips. Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
15:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold, could I suggest then that perhaps the issued raised about the article are insurmountable in the context of this AfD? I'd love to see a situation where it was possible to rescue the article but from my perspective, it doesn't seem that way. Your thoughts? —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
02:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I was busier with other things than expected, but I will see what I can do in a over the coming days. (I was just about to publish this edit but I realised has been 7 days since its nomination I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
01:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Spy-cicle: Are you able to provide an update with how you're going? You said you would find some better sourcing and improve the article, but save for
tweaking the lead, you haven't made any substantive changes yet. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
09:20, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've come back to this article many times over the years and have never been able to find anything substantial enough to stop it from being a massive
retelling of the plot, but I hope that you can prove otherwise. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. I don't see any reliable secondary sources that could justify an expansive list about the entire cast. Ironically, I do think there's an encyclopedic article to be created here. We already have Trevor Philips. This isn't anything but a hunch, but I bet Michael De Santa/ Townley and Franklin Clinton have some potential. Agree with CR4ZE that the character coverage is probably around those protagonists, if anything, and that what coverage we could find is already at the main game article. If someone wanted to show notability, I feel like that might yield some potential. I have only found trivial mentions at first glance. Jontesta ( talk) 23:02, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- My inclination is that Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton scrape just under the WP:GNG, but I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary. Trevor Philips has been the subject of much wider discussions within the gaming community—he was a considerably eccentric and divisive character and was also central to the torture controversy. Plus, we have more analysis on Ogg's contributions and the overall character development. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 03:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per Rhain. I trust their judgment about the WP:JUSTPLOT and lack of sources. Axem Titanium ( talk) 03:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Good faith attempts to make this work as a stand-alone list have tried and come up short. No third party sources that can provide real-world context and importance, as per WP:N, WP:NOT, and WP:V. Shooterwalker ( talk) 16:57, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 06:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
List of Grand Theft Auto V characters
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Grand Theft Auto V characters ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
It's important for context first of all to read over last month's AfD involving all prior series entries' character list articles, where consensus was to delete/redirect to the relevant game's main article. This article was mentioned there, but it was suggested that what we have here is more substantiative and that any potential AfD for this page be conducted separately. So, I disagree with the first notion but agree with the second, and here we are. Much of the content this article hinges itself on is copy-pasted directly from Development of Grand Theft Auto V. If we were to subtract that from the article, we'd be left with a crufty list that fails WP:N and WP:VGSCOPE #5 and #6. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 14:01, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 14:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 14:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. Jovanmilic97 ( talk) 09:44, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. This article definitely has more substance than those in the aforementioned AfD, but still not enough to justify its existence. It has 18 sections for different characters—four of these include commentary on the character development, and after some research I think only three more (Lester, Jimmy, Tracey) have the potential for minor expansion. A list of seven characters (of which two are considered "supporting" and three are copied directly from the development article) simply fails to stand on its own per WP:LISTN, and the other 12 sections are just pure WP:PLOT. – Rhain ☔ 00:36, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @ Rhain: If consensus heads this way, we can add those tid-bits about other characters to the Development article. I have the sources saved. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 15:41, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Plenty of TV shows, books, and games have character lists on Wikipedia. GTA V is the second best selling game of all time. If any game deserves a list of characters, its this one. Quick searches suggest that there have been plenty of articles written about characters in this game. If we delete this, lets delete every character list off this website. Bluedude588 ( talk) 14:39, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @ Bluedude588: Saying that WP:OTHERSTUFF exists doesn't make a compelling argument. How are game sales relevant? If you can find sourcing that expounds on the character development, design and/or reception of multiple GTA V characters—not just in-universe, crufty plot details—and if that provides enough content to merit ( WP:LISTN) an entire article, that will lend your argument more weight. As far as my research has taken me (not to stroke my ego, but I have 2 FA's, a GA and a FL specific to the GTA V topic), it isn't there. There's plenty of coverage on the three leads but that's not enough to hang an entire article for all the characters on. Trevor Philips meets WP:GNG (the other two, perhaps not) and we already have the relevant analysis at the Development article already. Lists of TV/film/game characters should have established notability if there has been commentary from high-quality, reliable sources ( WP:V) such that it's necessary to branch out from a parent article. If they don't, this is not the forum for an article about them. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 15:20, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Comment. Would it be appropriate to convert the article into something like "List of Grand Theft Auto V protagonists"? These three do appear to have received some degree of coverage in regard to development and reception. If you argue that what we have just enough to merge the protagonists' individual developments to Development of Grand Theft Auto V, I would favour merger and deletion, obviously (deletion instead of redirection to avoid IP edit war standoffs). Everything else in the article, from "Central characters" down, is entirely in-universe (with the exception of one line about Ron, sourced to a local newspaper) and not worth keeping, regardless of the outcome of this AfD. IceWelder [ ✉] 17:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
IceWelder: The information in the list regarding Michael and Franklin actually already exists over at
the development article—it was copied directly from there to here—so there's no need to merge anything else. The protagonists article is not a bad idea, but with all of the information already existing elsewhere (not to mention that one of the three protagonists
has their own article), I'm not sure it would work. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I double-checked and indeed, the "Creation and conception" section in this article is merely a poorer (older?) version of the "Story and character development" in the article about the development as a whole, with some lines ripped out and moved to the individual characters' sections. If the article is only kept alive through a copy-paste from another article, it might as well be deleted. IceWelder [ ✉] 07:44, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
IceWelder: The information in the list regarding Michael and Franklin actually already exists over at
the development article—it was copied directly from there to here—so there's no need to merge anything else. The protagonists article is not a bad idea, but with all of the information already existing elsewhere (not to mention that one of the three protagonists
has their own article), I'm not sure it would work. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Keep. I particpated in the two previous AfDs related to Rockstar Games' character lists ( 1, 2) and !voted for them to be redirected to their main article. However, this game is the second best selling video game and I am certain enough coverage is out there for this be fleshed out. I am going to start improving the list with better sourcing to see what can be done. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 18:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've come back to this article many times over the years and have never been able to find anything substantial enough to stop it from being a massive
retelling of the plot, but I hope that you can prove otherwise. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Spy-cicle: Are you able to provide an update with how you're going? You said you would find some better sourcing and improve the article, but save for
tweaking the lead, you haven't made any substantive changes yet. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
09:20, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I was busier with other things than expected, but I will see what I can do in a over the coming days. (I was just about to publish this edit but I realised has been 7 days since its nomination I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
01:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold, could I suggest then that perhaps the issued raised about the article are insurmountable in the context of this AfD? I'd love to see a situation where it was possible to rescue the article but from my perspective, it doesn't seem that way. Your thoughts? —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
02:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a
WP:TNT situation? If so, I do see your point there are large part with just plot infomation (I mean the amount of detail on a small side character like Lazlow is prime example of that). I mean I suppose it could be sent back to draft where there are no time limits to rework/expand the list. Though I do agree with others that there is a fair bit of coverage of Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton but indivdually less than Trevor Phillips. Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
15:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not exactly, no. I'm suggesting that if the sourcing existed in the first place, it wouldn't have to take an AfD to rescue the page. You're welcome of course to develop further in draft space, just be wary that you would need to establish a list that is substantial enough to be notable without violating
VGSCOPE 5/6. As I've said, I think this would be infeasible, but if you think you can prove me wrong with a draft, please do so. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
15:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Grand Theft Auto V. Enough RS coverage may be out there to keep this list but within the time looking I was not able to find it and at the moment it is mostly WP:PLOT. I might work on a draft in the future if I get enough time. Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton should also be redirected back to Grand Theft Auto V. Regards Spy-cicle💥 Talk? 09:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
- Not exactly, no. I'm suggesting that if the sourcing existed in the first place, it wouldn't have to take an AfD to rescue the page. You're welcome of course to develop further in draft space, just be wary that you would need to establish a list that is substantial enough to be notable without violating
VGSCOPE 5/6. As I've said, I think this would be infeasible, but if you think you can prove me wrong with a draft, please do so. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
15:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting a
WP:TNT situation? If so, I do see your point there are large part with just plot infomation (I mean the amount of detail on a small side character like Lazlow is prime example of that). I mean I suppose it could be sent back to draft where there are no time limits to rework/expand the list. Though I do agree with others that there is a fair bit of coverage of Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton but indivdually less than Trevor Phillips. Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
15:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- If I may be so bold, could I suggest then that perhaps the issued raised about the article are insurmountable in the context of this AfD? I'd love to see a situation where it was possible to rescue the article but from my perspective, it doesn't seem that way. Your thoughts? —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
02:37, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I was busier with other things than expected, but I will see what I can do in a over the coming days. (I was just about to publish this edit but I realised has been 7 days since its nomination I don't know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) Regards
Spy-cicle💥
Talk?
01:07, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- @
Spy-cicle: Are you able to provide an update with how you're going? You said you would find some better sourcing and improve the article, but save for
tweaking the lead, you haven't made any substantive changes yet. —
CR4ZE (
T •
C)
09:20, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've come back to this article many times over the years and have never been able to find anything substantial enough to stop it from being a massive
retelling of the plot, but I hope that you can prove otherwise. –
Rhain
☔
07:24, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete. I don't see any reliable secondary sources that could justify an expansive list about the entire cast. Ironically, I do think there's an encyclopedic article to be created here. We already have Trevor Philips. This isn't anything but a hunch, but I bet Michael De Santa/ Townley and Franklin Clinton have some potential. Agree with CR4ZE that the character coverage is probably around those protagonists, if anything, and that what coverage we could find is already at the main game article. If someone wanted to show notability, I feel like that might yield some potential. I have only found trivial mentions at first glance. Jontesta ( talk) 23:02, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- My inclination is that Michael De Santa and Franklin Clinton scrape just under the WP:GNG, but I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary. Trevor Philips has been the subject of much wider discussions within the gaming community—he was a considerably eccentric and divisive character and was also central to the torture controversy. Plus, we have more analysis on Ogg's contributions and the overall character development. — CR4ZE ( T • C) 03:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:23, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per Rhain. I trust their judgment about the WP:JUSTPLOT and lack of sources. Axem Titanium ( talk) 03:46, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Good faith attempts to make this work as a stand-alone list have tried and come up short. No third party sources that can provide real-world context and importance, as per WP:N, WP:NOT, and WP:V. Shooterwalker ( talk) 16:57, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.