- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Liz Read! Talk! 02:06, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
List of Air Berlin destinations
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Air Berlin destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I am also nominating the following related pages:
- List of Meridiana destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of SkyGreece Airlines destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of US Airways Express destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of Virgin Express destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
As was discussed at the 2018 RFC on lists of airline destinations and quoted in a recent related AFD, the general consensus is that they are not content for Wikipedia. As per the subsequent AN discussion, subsequent AFDs may be nominated in a orderly fashion provided the link to the RFC is included and the closer takes the RFD discussion into consideration.
As per the recent AFDs on numerous Airline destination lists, the articles on their own fail WP:NOT#DIRECTORY, and some of the nominated airline list articles such as SkyGreece and Virgin Express would also fail WP:CORP via No Inherited Notability, and to quote from WP:CORP: An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it. A corporation is not notable merely because it owns notable subsidiaries. One other Airline destination list ( List of US Airways Express destinations) is largely part of a defunct main carrier ( US Airways) where some of the information may easily be covered in the related parent articles.
The airline lists specifically nominated in this AFD are related to companies that have since closed down and ceased services. Many of the limited sources in the nominated articles are largely from an archived versions of the closed airlines' websites and would not pass WP:INDEPENDENT and WP:V.
WP:BEFORE is not compulsory, however a lot of sources either points back to mirror websites of Wikipedia or archived references from aviation blog / community sources such as airlineroute.net or airliners.net and from the former airline's websites.
As per the last AFD, I'm open to suggestions, but considering the limited sources that may rescue those articles, For now, I would suggest Delete as the nominator. Coastie43 ( talk) 02:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Coastie43 ( talk) 02:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Italy, and United States of America. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Delete all - all the same problems with the previous similar AfDs. As far as I can see, these are all defunct airlines and the lists claim to be destinations at the point of closure. This information could be tediously checked against published route-maps but that wouldn't be am independent source. It could be collated from various databases but that would be getting close to WP:OR, and I'm not clear how it would be possible to create a page without one or the other. Fundamentally I think there are better places to find this information and WP is not everything WP:NOTEVERYTHING JMWt ( talk) 19:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Delete all - Per the RFC, per WP:NOT, and per WP:CORP. Articles exhaustively listing routine, run-of-the-mill services provided by a business are a straight-forward contravention of WP:NOTCATALOGUE. Articles sourced only to the company providing those services and run-of-the-mill stories in insufficiently-independent industry press fail WP:NCORP. A regularly-updated board listing the services of a company is a violation of WP:NOTNEWS.
- The TL;DR version is there is no reason why we should keep what are essentially the equivalent of a list of all the cities that Blockbuster Video had branches in on 7th August 1989. We do not exhaustively list the services of a company, still less exhaustively list the services of a company on a random and essentially meaningless date. This applies regardless of the notability of the company that provides those services.
- PS -
JMWt I think the
WP:OR point is valid but also that it would apply even if the company was not defunct. This is because these lists always include "terminated" destinations, but the only way that you can confirm that these destinations are terminated is to go to the website of the airline in question and see that they do not list it as a destination - that is, you have to infer something from the source that it does not explicitly state (i.e.,
WP:OR). Even if a news story can be found saying that the service has been terminated, this only confirms that the service was terminated as of the date of that story, not either at the date given in the article (typically one years in the past - e.g. the Air Berlin list is supposed to be accurate as of October 2017) or at present. This is because airline services change week-to-week constantly and they may well have started serving that destination again.
FOARP (
talk)
10:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think, on reflection, the WP:OR point is more likely to be important for airlines that are still running; it's possible that a RS could be found showing destinations soon before the airline closes, but almost by definition a list of destinations non-redundant airline is almost inevitably going to be sourced as I've described above.
- I guess I'm biased but to me I can't see why would host this information for any airline, redundant or not. JMWt ( talk) 12:16, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Liz Read! Talk! 02:06, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
List of Air Berlin destinations
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- List of Air Berlin destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I am also nominating the following related pages:
- List of Meridiana destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of SkyGreece Airlines destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of US Airways Express destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of Virgin Express destinations ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
As was discussed at the 2018 RFC on lists of airline destinations and quoted in a recent related AFD, the general consensus is that they are not content for Wikipedia. As per the subsequent AN discussion, subsequent AFDs may be nominated in a orderly fashion provided the link to the RFC is included and the closer takes the RFD discussion into consideration.
As per the recent AFDs on numerous Airline destination lists, the articles on their own fail WP:NOT#DIRECTORY, and some of the nominated airline list articles such as SkyGreece and Virgin Express would also fail WP:CORP via No Inherited Notability, and to quote from WP:CORP: An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it. A corporation is not notable merely because it owns notable subsidiaries. One other Airline destination list ( List of US Airways Express destinations) is largely part of a defunct main carrier ( US Airways) where some of the information may easily be covered in the related parent articles.
The airline lists specifically nominated in this AFD are related to companies that have since closed down and ceased services. Many of the limited sources in the nominated articles are largely from an archived versions of the closed airlines' websites and would not pass WP:INDEPENDENT and WP:V.
WP:BEFORE is not compulsory, however a lot of sources either points back to mirror websites of Wikipedia or archived references from aviation blog / community sources such as airlineroute.net or airliners.net and from the former airline's websites.
As per the last AFD, I'm open to suggestions, but considering the limited sources that may rescue those articles, For now, I would suggest Delete as the nominator. Coastie43 ( talk) 02:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Coastie43 ( talk) 02:22, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Italy, and United States of America. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:29, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Delete all - all the same problems with the previous similar AfDs. As far as I can see, these are all defunct airlines and the lists claim to be destinations at the point of closure. This information could be tediously checked against published route-maps but that wouldn't be am independent source. It could be collated from various databases but that would be getting close to WP:OR, and I'm not clear how it would be possible to create a page without one or the other. Fundamentally I think there are better places to find this information and WP is not everything WP:NOTEVERYTHING JMWt ( talk) 19:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Delete all - Per the RFC, per WP:NOT, and per WP:CORP. Articles exhaustively listing routine, run-of-the-mill services provided by a business are a straight-forward contravention of WP:NOTCATALOGUE. Articles sourced only to the company providing those services and run-of-the-mill stories in insufficiently-independent industry press fail WP:NCORP. A regularly-updated board listing the services of a company is a violation of WP:NOTNEWS.
- The TL;DR version is there is no reason why we should keep what are essentially the equivalent of a list of all the cities that Blockbuster Video had branches in on 7th August 1989. We do not exhaustively list the services of a company, still less exhaustively list the services of a company on a random and essentially meaningless date. This applies regardless of the notability of the company that provides those services.
- PS -
JMWt I think the
WP:OR point is valid but also that it would apply even if the company was not defunct. This is because these lists always include "terminated" destinations, but the only way that you can confirm that these destinations are terminated is to go to the website of the airline in question and see that they do not list it as a destination - that is, you have to infer something from the source that it does not explicitly state (i.e.,
WP:OR). Even if a news story can be found saying that the service has been terminated, this only confirms that the service was terminated as of the date of that story, not either at the date given in the article (typically one years in the past - e.g. the Air Berlin list is supposed to be accurate as of October 2017) or at present. This is because airline services change week-to-week constantly and they may well have started serving that destination again.
FOARP (
talk)
10:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think, on reflection, the WP:OR point is more likely to be important for airlines that are still running; it's possible that a RS could be found showing destinations soon before the airline closes, but almost by definition a list of destinations non-redundant airline is almost inevitably going to be sourced as I've described above.
- I guess I'm biased but to me I can't see why would host this information for any airline, redundant or not. JMWt ( talk) 12:16, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.