- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. The big question here seems to be whether the Urban X Award is a significant enough award to confer notability. That fact that we have Urban X Award hints that it probably is, but I don't see any clear consensus on that either. -- RoySmith (talk) 05:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Leilani Leeane ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails PORNBIO, only one of the AVN noms isn't scene-related, and the other awards/noms fail, by repeated consensus, the well-known/significant test; negligible reliably sourced bio content. PROD removed without explanation or article improvement. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 23:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- Delete Another one of the many bios in this general category that fails notability guidelines, the type that was mentioned in another AfD discussion.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
23:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- And where is this discussion? Erpert blah, blah, blah... 11:24, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Passes WP:PORNBIO because she won the Urban X Award for Female Rising Star. "Consensus" established by users who have given no reasoning besides " WP:I just don't like it" is not a legitimate argument for degrading the value of the Urban X Award. I have seen AfD's in which recipients of these awards were deleted and I would like to know what the problem is with this particular award. Can someone please answer that for me? The only difference between this and other well-known and significant industry awards is that the Urban X Award is entirely focused on ethnic pornography. I'm not familiar with music WP articles, but I doubt that the Latin Grammy Award is excluded from consideration in WP:MUSICBIO or WP:ANYBIO. Rebecca1990 ( talk) 01:22, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- This really is in appropriate, "Rebecca". You don't provide a shred of evidence to support your dishonest insinuations of racism, and you know there isn't any. The determination that this award wasn't sufficient to establish notability was first made nearly five years ago, based on an argument advanced by an active member of the pornography wikiproject, and has been repeatedly sustained at subsequent AFDs and DRVs. See, for example these discussions,
- This really is in appropriate, "Rebecca". You don't provide a shred of evidence to support your dishonest insinuations of racism, and you know there isn't any. The determination that this award wasn't sufficient to establish notability was first made nearly five years ago, based on an argument advanced by an active member of the pornography wikiproject, and has been repeatedly sustained at subsequent AFDs and DRVs. See, for example these discussions,
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kitten (pornographic actress)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aurora Jolie
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Devlin Weed
Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2011_January_24#Carmen Hayes
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cherokee_D'Ass_(3rd_nomination)
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kaiya_Lynn
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ray Victory (2nd nomination)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kirra Lynne
- where no one, even in the more heated discussions, advanced the gratuitous accusations of racism that "Rebecca" was so quick to trot out here. For good reason.
- The Urban X ceremony is a coatrack of an event, meant mostly as an excuse to sell tickets to an event to "civilians," not a bona fide honor. It is neither well-known, nor significant. nor an industry award. It is certainly not "well-known"; the article on the award itself has no independent, reliable sourcing, and neither GNews nor GBooks searching turns up any substantive coverage. It is not an industry award; it is not sponsored by any industry group or organization. Instead, it is a personal moneymaking project of one Giana Taylor, a non-notable Suze Randall model and one-time Playboy Cyber Girl. Its lack of significance can be measured not only the constantly shifting of awards categories, reflecting the promotional needs of each year's ceremony's paying sponsors, not only by the fact that award categories were up for sale, so that paying sponsors could be assured of awards categories that only their productions were eligible for, not only by the fact that the awards were (said to be) based on a website poll where anyone could vote an unlimited number of times, but by the fact that in the award's five years of existence, a whopping 36 awards have gone to one Alexander Devoe, the husband of award founder Giana Taylor and his production company,
[1] with at least another dozen going to Taylor's producing partner, Brian Pumper. This award is barely more significant than Pathmark's "Cheese of the Month", or McDonald's naming the Big Mac "Hamburger of the Year".
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (
talk)
00:46, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Don't you think five years is a long time? Those AfD's have become outdated with the increasing coverage of the Urban X Awards before, during, and after every show. The show began about five years ago so of course it didn't have enough coverage to demonstrate notability back then because it was just WP:Too soon. The most recent AfD you listed was the one on Cherokee D'Ass from June 2013, a discussion which had an equal amount of delete votes and keep votes. And you think EVERY adult film industry award is run by a PR business and that wins/nominations are purchased by the recipients. You've made the same argument for several other awards, even AVN and XBIZ. So what if Alexander Devoe has a 36 Urban X Awards and he is the husband of founder Giana Taylor? Devoe is an AVN Hall of Famer [2] and therefore passes WP:PORNBIO regardless of how many Urban X Awards he has received. What relationship, if any, does Giana Taylor have with Leilani Leeane or any other recipients. I bet there must be many Urban X Award recipients that Taylor hasn't even met in person. I do believe that you have demonstrated an obvious WP:Conflict of interest on WP, particularly against the porn industry, not black people. I never accused you or any other WP editor of racism. All I did was point out the only difference I noticed between the Urban X Awards and other adult industry awards. The Urban X Award is like the adult industry's Latin Grammy or BET Awards. I believe it was created with a genuine interest in recognizing a group of people who faces challenges that white performers don't. Rebecca1990 ( talk) 21:19, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per above.
Subtropical-man
talk
(en-2) 11:34, 22 February 2014 (UTC) - Keep per above. Additionally, she's already a crossover. She started out as mainstream and then crossed over to porn. -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 18:00, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per Rebecca1990. Nymf ( talk) 18:11, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: per Rebecca1990, please stop bashing the primary industry award that celebrates and promotes ethnic diversity. -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 19:12, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - One of the issues with the Urban X Award is the sheer number of, mostly non-major or non-significant IMO, award categories present at those award ceremonies over time...some of which have apparently changed over the years. For instance, Carmen Hayes apparently won a "Nicest Breasts in Porn" award, and Cherokee D'Ass won a "Biggest Ass in Porn" award for which consensus deemed was "not sufficient for demonstrating notability". While I had never previously heard of the "Rising Star Female" award before this AfD (probably because the Wikipedia article about the Urban X Awards could use some help for sure), one could make an argument that an award like that was basically equivalent to something like a "New Starlet Award", which would likely make it a major award category. Obviously, not all award (adult film-related or not) categories or ceremonies pass the "well-known and significant award" standard.
- I've also yet to see any evidence that the Urban X "award categories were up for sale, so that paying sponsors could be assured of awards categories that only their productions were eligible for".
Guy1890 (
talk)
22:26, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Guy's observations and would like to offer one of my own. Part of the problem with editing anything porn related is that none of us (at least as far as I am aware) are actually in the industry, so its difficult for us as Editors to have an accurate read on how various awards are perceived. I am a subscriber and fairly frequent reader of AVN magazine, but even I will admit that reading the articles does not give me the insight that being a performer or industry worker has. Furthermore, as a former Entertainment industry employee, I know people who currently or have worked in the Adult industry and chat with them on occasion, but I'd still be hard-pressed to make any kind of claim to understand what its like to be in the porn world. Also its unfortunate that the Editors who I have reason to believe are connected to the industry, are lambasted for being shills or having a COI. We should be looking to them for their insights, but instead we seek to discredit them based on assumption. --
Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (
talk)
19:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper or noticeboard for any business sector. Instead of relying on the personal judgements or original research of editors connected to the business, we should make decisions based on coverage in reliable sources. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 05:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Guy's observations and would like to offer one of my own. Part of the problem with editing anything porn related is that none of us (at least as far as I am aware) are actually in the industry, so its difficult for us as Editors to have an accurate read on how various awards are perceived. I am a subscriber and fairly frequent reader of AVN magazine, but even I will admit that reading the articles does not give me the insight that being a performer or industry worker has. Furthermore, as a former Entertainment industry employee, I know people who currently or have worked in the Adult industry and chat with them on occasion, but I'd still be hard-pressed to make any kind of claim to understand what its like to be in the porn world. Also its unfortunate that the Editors who I have reason to believe are connected to the industry, are lambasted for being shills or having a COI. We should be looking to them for their insights, but instead we seek to discredit them based on assumption. --
Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (
talk)
19:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per Rebecca1990.-- 109.188.125.37 ( talk) 11:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. This article abysmally fails WP:GNG, because AFAICS there is no evidence of any substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. Some editors seem to regard GNG as a sort of technical obstacle which can be circumvented by a specialist notability guideline, but that misses the point. Wikipedia articles must be based on independent reliable sources, and unless those sources exist, any page should have no content. If the subject has won a significant award, then include that fact in an article on the award and/or a list of winners. But without the sources, there should not be a standalone article. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 04:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails PORNBIO without a significant enough award win. An Urban-X Award is not enough per editor consensus. Fails GNG without substantial coverage by reliable sources. My own search yielded one paragraph in an AVN article. Not enough. • Gene93k ( talk) 10:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. While GNG is not the be-all and end-all that's etched in stone, the fact of the matter is that regardless of what guideline is used, there is insufficient notability to be found here. Also, it should be noted that the
bad faith of some of the !voters above is absolutley appalling. -
The Bushranger
One ping only
11:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I strongly endorse The Bushranger's concern about the bad faith of some of the keep !voters. Those editors should be aware that if that sort of conduct is sustained, it will come under close scrutiny. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:43, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. She won the award. I asked a few days ago where the discussion was that concluded that Urban X was a non-notable award ceremony, and no one has pointed to such a discussion (and anyway, wouldn't Urban X Award be deleted first if that were the case?). Also, BrownHairedGirl, I'm a little confused...the subject of an article who actually won the award has been brought to AfD, yet the "keep" !voters are being accused of bad faith? (And please let's not hear anyone respond along the lines of "stop casting aspersions", "stop personalizing things", or making arguments in all bold text.) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 07:08, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. The big question here seems to be whether the Urban X Award is a significant enough award to confer notability. That fact that we have Urban X Award hints that it probably is, but I don't see any clear consensus on that either. -- RoySmith (talk) 05:52, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Leilani Leeane ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Fails PORNBIO, only one of the AVN noms isn't scene-related, and the other awards/noms fail, by repeated consensus, the well-known/significant test; negligible reliably sourced bio content. PROD removed without explanation or article improvement. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ( talk) 23:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- Delete Another one of the many bios in this general category that fails notability guidelines, the type that was mentioned in another AfD discussion.
John Pack Lambert (
talk)
23:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
- And where is this discussion? Erpert blah, blah, blah... 11:24, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Keep Passes WP:PORNBIO because she won the Urban X Award for Female Rising Star. "Consensus" established by users who have given no reasoning besides " WP:I just don't like it" is not a legitimate argument for degrading the value of the Urban X Award. I have seen AfD's in which recipients of these awards were deleted and I would like to know what the problem is with this particular award. Can someone please answer that for me? The only difference between this and other well-known and significant industry awards is that the Urban X Award is entirely focused on ethnic pornography. I'm not familiar with music WP articles, but I doubt that the Latin Grammy Award is excluded from consideration in WP:MUSICBIO or WP:ANYBIO. Rebecca1990 ( talk) 01:22, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- This really is in appropriate, "Rebecca". You don't provide a shred of evidence to support your dishonest insinuations of racism, and you know there isn't any. The determination that this award wasn't sufficient to establish notability was first made nearly five years ago, based on an argument advanced by an active member of the pornography wikiproject, and has been repeatedly sustained at subsequent AFDs and DRVs. See, for example these discussions,
- This really is in appropriate, "Rebecca". You don't provide a shred of evidence to support your dishonest insinuations of racism, and you know there isn't any. The determination that this award wasn't sufficient to establish notability was first made nearly five years ago, based on an argument advanced by an active member of the pornography wikiproject, and has been repeatedly sustained at subsequent AFDs and DRVs. See, for example these discussions,
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kitten (pornographic actress)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aurora Jolie
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Devlin Weed
Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2011_January_24#Carmen Hayes
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cherokee_D'Ass_(3rd_nomination)
Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Kaiya_Lynn
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ray Victory (2nd nomination)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kirra Lynne
- where no one, even in the more heated discussions, advanced the gratuitous accusations of racism that "Rebecca" was so quick to trot out here. For good reason.
- The Urban X ceremony is a coatrack of an event, meant mostly as an excuse to sell tickets to an event to "civilians," not a bona fide honor. It is neither well-known, nor significant. nor an industry award. It is certainly not "well-known"; the article on the award itself has no independent, reliable sourcing, and neither GNews nor GBooks searching turns up any substantive coverage. It is not an industry award; it is not sponsored by any industry group or organization. Instead, it is a personal moneymaking project of one Giana Taylor, a non-notable Suze Randall model and one-time Playboy Cyber Girl. Its lack of significance can be measured not only the constantly shifting of awards categories, reflecting the promotional needs of each year's ceremony's paying sponsors, not only by the fact that award categories were up for sale, so that paying sponsors could be assured of awards categories that only their productions were eligible for, not only by the fact that the awards were (said to be) based on a website poll where anyone could vote an unlimited number of times, but by the fact that in the award's five years of existence, a whopping 36 awards have gone to one Alexander Devoe, the husband of award founder Giana Taylor and his production company,
[1] with at least another dozen going to Taylor's producing partner, Brian Pumper. This award is barely more significant than Pathmark's "Cheese of the Month", or McDonald's naming the Big Mac "Hamburger of the Year".
Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (
talk)
00:46, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Don't you think five years is a long time? Those AfD's have become outdated with the increasing coverage of the Urban X Awards before, during, and after every show. The show began about five years ago so of course it didn't have enough coverage to demonstrate notability back then because it was just WP:Too soon. The most recent AfD you listed was the one on Cherokee D'Ass from June 2013, a discussion which had an equal amount of delete votes and keep votes. And you think EVERY adult film industry award is run by a PR business and that wins/nominations are purchased by the recipients. You've made the same argument for several other awards, even AVN and XBIZ. So what if Alexander Devoe has a 36 Urban X Awards and he is the husband of founder Giana Taylor? Devoe is an AVN Hall of Famer [2] and therefore passes WP:PORNBIO regardless of how many Urban X Awards he has received. What relationship, if any, does Giana Taylor have with Leilani Leeane or any other recipients. I bet there must be many Urban X Award recipients that Taylor hasn't even met in person. I do believe that you have demonstrated an obvious WP:Conflict of interest on WP, particularly against the porn industry, not black people. I never accused you or any other WP editor of racism. All I did was point out the only difference I noticed between the Urban X Awards and other adult industry awards. The Urban X Award is like the adult industry's Latin Grammy or BET Awards. I believe it was created with a genuine interest in recognizing a group of people who faces challenges that white performers don't. Rebecca1990 ( talk) 21:19, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 01:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per above.
Subtropical-man
talk
(en-2) 11:34, 22 February 2014 (UTC) - Keep per above. Additionally, she's already a crossover. She started out as mainstream and then crossed over to porn. -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 18:00, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per Rebecca1990. Nymf ( talk) 18:11, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment: per Rebecca1990, please stop bashing the primary industry award that celebrates and promotes ethnic diversity. -- Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ( talk) 19:12, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- Comment - One of the issues with the Urban X Award is the sheer number of, mostly non-major or non-significant IMO, award categories present at those award ceremonies over time...some of which have apparently changed over the years. For instance, Carmen Hayes apparently won a "Nicest Breasts in Porn" award, and Cherokee D'Ass won a "Biggest Ass in Porn" award for which consensus deemed was "not sufficient for demonstrating notability". While I had never previously heard of the "Rising Star Female" award before this AfD (probably because the Wikipedia article about the Urban X Awards could use some help for sure), one could make an argument that an award like that was basically equivalent to something like a "New Starlet Award", which would likely make it a major award category. Obviously, not all award (adult film-related or not) categories or ceremonies pass the "well-known and significant award" standard.
- I've also yet to see any evidence that the Urban X "award categories were up for sale, so that paying sponsors could be assured of awards categories that only their productions were eligible for".
Guy1890 (
talk)
22:26, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Guy's observations and would like to offer one of my own. Part of the problem with editing anything porn related is that none of us (at least as far as I am aware) are actually in the industry, so its difficult for us as Editors to have an accurate read on how various awards are perceived. I am a subscriber and fairly frequent reader of AVN magazine, but even I will admit that reading the articles does not give me the insight that being a performer or industry worker has. Furthermore, as a former Entertainment industry employee, I know people who currently or have worked in the Adult industry and chat with them on occasion, but I'd still be hard-pressed to make any kind of claim to understand what its like to be in the porn world. Also its unfortunate that the Editors who I have reason to believe are connected to the industry, are lambasted for being shills or having a COI. We should be looking to them for their insights, but instead we seek to discredit them based on assumption. --
Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (
talk)
19:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper or noticeboard for any business sector. Instead of relying on the personal judgements or original research of editors connected to the business, we should make decisions based on coverage in reliable sources. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 05:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree with Guy's observations and would like to offer one of my own. Part of the problem with editing anything porn related is that none of us (at least as far as I am aware) are actually in the industry, so its difficult for us as Editors to have an accurate read on how various awards are perceived. I am a subscriber and fairly frequent reader of AVN magazine, but even I will admit that reading the articles does not give me the insight that being a performer or industry worker has. Furthermore, as a former Entertainment industry employee, I know people who currently or have worked in the Adult industry and chat with them on occasion, but I'd still be hard-pressed to make any kind of claim to understand what its like to be in the porn world. Also its unfortunate that the Editors who I have reason to believe are connected to the industry, are lambasted for being shills or having a COI. We should be looking to them for their insights, but instead we seek to discredit them based on assumption. --
Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (
talk)
19:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per Rebecca1990.-- 109.188.125.37 ( talk) 11:33, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. This article abysmally fails WP:GNG, because AFAICS there is no evidence of any substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. Some editors seem to regard GNG as a sort of technical obstacle which can be circumvented by a specialist notability guideline, but that misses the point. Wikipedia articles must be based on independent reliable sources, and unless those sources exist, any page should have no content. If the subject has won a significant award, then include that fact in an article on the award and/or a list of winners. But without the sources, there should not be a standalone article. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 04:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails PORNBIO without a significant enough award win. An Urban-X Award is not enough per editor consensus. Fails GNG without substantial coverage by reliable sources. My own search yielded one paragraph in an AVN article. Not enough. • Gene93k ( talk) 10:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Delete. While GNG is not the be-all and end-all that's etched in stone, the fact of the matter is that regardless of what guideline is used, there is insufficient notability to be found here. Also, it should be noted that the
bad faith of some of the !voters above is absolutley appalling. -
The Bushranger
One ping only
11:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- I strongly endorse The Bushranger's concern about the bad faith of some of the keep !voters. Those editors should be aware that if that sort of conduct is sustained, it will come under close scrutiny. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:43, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. She won the award. I asked a few days ago where the discussion was that concluded that Urban X was a non-notable award ceremony, and no one has pointed to such a discussion (and anyway, wouldn't Urban X Award be deleted first if that were the case?). Also, BrownHairedGirl, I'm a little confused...the subject of an article who actually won the award has been brought to AfD, yet the "keep" !voters are being accused of bad faith? (And please let's not hear anyone respond along the lines of "stop casting aspersions", "stop personalizing things", or making arguments in all bold text.) Erpert blah, blah, blah... 07:08, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.