- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify + redirect. (non-admin closure) b uidh e 23:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Lao Division 1
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- Lao Division 1 ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Message left at talk page: Review under Wikipedia's new article curation / review process. Thanks for your work on this article. As a part of Wikipedia's new article review / curation process I reviewed the article. In my opinion, this topic, to the extent visible in the article does not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines which is a requirement for existence of a separate article on topic. This guideline is described at WP:Notability and in the specialized guidelines linked at the beginning of that page which provide somewhat of an alternate. The core element of wp:notability is that there are some independent published sources which covered the topic of the article in depth. I don't see any such coverage or sourcing in the article, nor any alternative in the sports notability guideline that would even temporarily bypass that requirement. I have nominated the article for deletion which means that the community will decide the result. North8000 ( talk) 02:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Laos-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Football in Laos. Giant Snowman 19:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Football in Laos. North8000 ( talk) 13:23, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep It is a second division of football in a relatively big asian country. Deleting it would be just another instance of systemic bias. Ludost Mlačani ( talk) 10:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment hang on - we don't have notability guidelines for leagues, but we do for teams. And teams that play in top national cup tournaments are generally considered notable. This is the second highest tier of club football in a nation where football is very popular, and the league is national, whose teams play in national cups. How could we be in a situation where clubs in a league are generally considered notable, but the league isn't? Is there really no coverage of this league, that would achieve GNG? Nfitz ( talk) 03:50, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- If somebody finds sources that satisfy wp:GNG it could be recreated.North8000 (
talk)
11:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- How
User:North8000 isn't that
WP:Systemic Bias?
Nfitz (
talk)
16:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think that objectively applying Wikipedia's standards represents avoidance of bias. North8000 (
talk)
10:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Then how can you delete this
User:North8000? The standard in
WP:FOOTYN is that a team is notable if it plays in national cups - and teams in this (the second highest level of soccer) in Laos play in the national cup. How could we possibly be in a situation where a team is notable, but the league they primarily play in isn't? Sure, sources would help - and they are probably out there somewhere ... though I don't even know where to start looking.
Nfitz (
talk)
16:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- First you should understand that I am just trying to do my job properly which ended up with putting it here for others to decide, and possibly expressing an opinion as (merely) one of those people. The relevant guidelines here
WP:Notability and
Wikipedia:Notability (sports). The item which you are linking to is not a policy or a guideline, it is an essay. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk)
18:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- It does reflect where the community is on individual teams now, for some time. It's unheard of for a league to not be notable if it's teams are. It's unheard of for the second-highest league of a nation where football is a very popular sport to not be notable. This would not be happening if the nation was English-speaking with an accessible media. Please withdraw this biased nomination now. Nfitz ( talk) 18:59, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- First you should understand that I am just trying to do my job properly which ended up with putting it here for others to decide, and possibly expressing an opinion as (merely) one of those people. The relevant guidelines here
WP:Notability and
Wikipedia:Notability (sports). The item which you are linking to is not a policy or a guideline, it is an essay. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk)
18:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Then how can you delete this
User:North8000? The standard in
WP:FOOTYN is that a team is notable if it plays in national cups - and teams in this (the second highest level of soccer) in Laos play in the national cup. How could we possibly be in a situation where a team is notable, but the league they primarily play in isn't? Sure, sources would help - and they are probably out there somewhere ... though I don't even know where to start looking.
Nfitz (
talk)
16:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think that objectively applying Wikipedia's standards represents avoidance of bias. North8000 (
talk)
10:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- How
User:North8000 isn't that
WP:Systemic Bias?
Nfitz (
talk)
16:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- If somebody finds sources that satisfy wp:GNG it could be recreated.North8000 (
talk)
11:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Not seeing a clear consensus for keep, redirect or delete here. There seems to be some sourcing in the article which could support GNG, but needs more discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down ( talk) 10:36, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Not seeing a clear consensus for keep, redirect or delete here. There seems to be some sourcing in the article which could support GNG, but needs more discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down ( talk) 10:36, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- KEEP: We do have general notability guidelines for leagues (see WP:FOOTYN), and based on those this league is notable since its members are eligible for national cup competitions. Mightytotems ( talk) 17:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Again, that is neither a policy or a guideline, it is a subpage at project football. One other note, "General Notability Guideline" does have a specific meaning in Wikipedia which is WP:GNG rather than referring to a subpage at project football. North8000 ( talk) 19:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Football in Laos and draftify article. Article in its current form does not meet GNG (see below). I couldn't find better sources myself. Someone that speaks Lao might be able to find better sources, in which case they can add these sources and submit the article for review. -- MrClog ( talk) 19:39, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
Source assessment table:
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/23/c_136390084.htm | 
|
State-owned Chinese press company. Likely that they are reliable when it comes to foreign sports.
|
 I'm a bit on the fence here, but I feel like merely listing how teams can be promoted from Division 1 to the top league is not SIGCOV.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.scorebing.com/league/2738 |
|
? Couldn't find much information to determine reliability, like information on which company operates the site. | Statistics only, clearly not SIGCOV.
|
✘ No |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Draftify + redirect. (non-admin closure) b uidh e 23:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Lao Division 1
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Lao Division 1 ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Message left at talk page: Review under Wikipedia's new article curation / review process. Thanks for your work on this article. As a part of Wikipedia's new article review / curation process I reviewed the article. In my opinion, this topic, to the extent visible in the article does not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines which is a requirement for existence of a separate article on topic. This guideline is described at WP:Notability and in the specialized guidelines linked at the beginning of that page which provide somewhat of an alternate. The core element of wp:notability is that there are some independent published sources which covered the topic of the article in depth. I don't see any such coverage or sourcing in the article, nor any alternative in the sports notability guideline that would even temporarily bypass that requirement. I have nominated the article for deletion which means that the community will decide the result. North8000 ( talk) 02:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Laos-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:26, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:27, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:29, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Football in Laos. Giant Snowman 19:30, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Football in Laos. North8000 ( talk) 13:23, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Keep It is a second division of football in a relatively big asian country. Deleting it would be just another instance of systemic bias. Ludost Mlačani ( talk) 10:18, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- Comment hang on - we don't have notability guidelines for leagues, but we do for teams. And teams that play in top national cup tournaments are generally considered notable. This is the second highest tier of club football in a nation where football is very popular, and the league is national, whose teams play in national cups. How could we be in a situation where clubs in a league are generally considered notable, but the league isn't? Is there really no coverage of this league, that would achieve GNG? Nfitz ( talk) 03:50, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- If somebody finds sources that satisfy wp:GNG it could be recreated.North8000 (
talk)
11:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- How
User:North8000 isn't that
WP:Systemic Bias?
Nfitz (
talk)
16:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think that objectively applying Wikipedia's standards represents avoidance of bias. North8000 (
talk)
10:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Then how can you delete this
User:North8000? The standard in
WP:FOOTYN is that a team is notable if it plays in national cups - and teams in this (the second highest level of soccer) in Laos play in the national cup. How could we possibly be in a situation where a team is notable, but the league they primarily play in isn't? Sure, sources would help - and they are probably out there somewhere ... though I don't even know where to start looking.
Nfitz (
talk)
16:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- First you should understand that I am just trying to do my job properly which ended up with putting it here for others to decide, and possibly expressing an opinion as (merely) one of those people. The relevant guidelines here
WP:Notability and
Wikipedia:Notability (sports). The item which you are linking to is not a policy or a guideline, it is an essay. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk)
18:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- It does reflect where the community is on individual teams now, for some time. It's unheard of for a league to not be notable if it's teams are. It's unheard of for the second-highest league of a nation where football is a very popular sport to not be notable. This would not be happening if the nation was English-speaking with an accessible media. Please withdraw this biased nomination now. Nfitz ( talk) 18:59, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- First you should understand that I am just trying to do my job properly which ended up with putting it here for others to decide, and possibly expressing an opinion as (merely) one of those people. The relevant guidelines here
WP:Notability and
Wikipedia:Notability (sports). The item which you are linking to is not a policy or a guideline, it is an essay. Sincerely, North8000 (
talk)
18:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Then how can you delete this
User:North8000? The standard in
WP:FOOTYN is that a team is notable if it plays in national cups - and teams in this (the second highest level of soccer) in Laos play in the national cup. How could we possibly be in a situation where a team is notable, but the league they primarily play in isn't? Sure, sources would help - and they are probably out there somewhere ... though I don't even know where to start looking.
Nfitz (
talk)
16:11, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think that objectively applying Wikipedia's standards represents avoidance of bias. North8000 (
talk)
10:52, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- How
User:North8000 isn't that
WP:Systemic Bias?
Nfitz (
talk)
16:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- If somebody finds sources that satisfy wp:GNG it could be recreated.North8000 (
talk)
11:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Not seeing a clear consensus for keep, redirect or delete here. There seems to be some sourcing in the article which could support GNG, but needs more discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down ( talk) 10:36, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
Relisting comment: Not seeing a clear consensus for keep, redirect or delete here. There seems to be some sourcing in the article which could support GNG, but needs more discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fenix down ( talk) 10:36, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- KEEP: We do have general notability guidelines for leagues (see WP:FOOTYN), and based on those this league is notable since its members are eligible for national cup competitions. Mightytotems ( talk) 17:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
- Again, that is neither a policy or a guideline, it is a subpage at project football. One other note, "General Notability Guideline" does have a specific meaning in Wikipedia which is WP:GNG rather than referring to a subpage at project football. North8000 ( talk) 19:00, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
- Redirect to Football in Laos and draftify article. Article in its current form does not meet GNG (see below). I couldn't find better sources myself. Someone that speaks Lao might be able to find better sources, in which case they can add these sources and submit the article for review. -- MrClog ( talk) 19:39, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
Source assessment table:
| ||||
| Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-06/23/c_136390084.htm |
|
State-owned Chinese press company. Likely that they are reliable when it comes to foreign sports.
|
I'm a bit on the fence here, but I feel like merely listing how teams can be promoted from Division 1 to the top league is not SIGCOV.
|
✘ No |
| https://www.scorebing.com/league/2738 |
|
? Couldn't find much information to determine reliability, like information on which company operates the site. | Statistics only, clearly not SIGCOV.
|
✘ No |
| This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{ source assess table}}. | ||||
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.