The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. The deletion debate has evolved into personal attacks and long winded discussions that have long went beyond the scope of this AFD. seicer | talk | contribs 14:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC) reply
Proposed for deletion because of edit history and unverifiable content. (1) More time, effort and care were invested in wiki-tagging for improvement than originator invested in text draft, and (2) there have been no other editors willing or able to address substantive problems which remain in this stagnant article. Tenmei ( talk) 16:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC) reply
Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.
I felt encouraged when I saw references had been added to Joseon tongsinsa, but this newest cause for dismay is bitter. The following in-line citations refer to an inaccessible article in a Korean on-line encyclopedia 통신사 (通信使).
The following is a Babelfish translation of that on-line Korean text. In the narrow context established by these four citations, I don't see how it is possible to construe the following as verification or validation -- setting aside for the moment what is explained at Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources. There isn't a match between the source cited and the sentences which are the object of the citation exercise.
I muddled through the onerous task of creating the machine-translated text below; and I carefully read the prose as best I could, highlighting the Gregorian calendar dates in bold font. What I found was troubling when re-evaluated in the following relevant contexts:
Despite WP:AGF, I can't see how this can be explained away. I can't figure out how to address this consistent with WP:Civ and WP:PA. In the world outside Wikipedia's consensus reality, this would be a blunt demonstration of "bad faith." To describe this travesty as "disingenuous" is too mild, but I'd begin there.
The prescient sense of alarm which impelled me to post an AfD listing now seems justified, even if it is the case, as Taemyr argues here, that some other strategy would have been better than listing an AfD while hoping that the Article Rescue Squadron step in.
At WP:BEFORE, one sentence stands out for me: "If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a good candidate for AfD." As I understand it, Taemyr construes this sentence to mean that I should withdraw my AfD nomination. If that recommendation still stands, then I need to re-evaluate my understanding of what "normal editing" means.
In light of this "References" sub-section, if withdrawal still remains a better way to proceed, I have the capacity to listen and to act on good advice. Before I began trying to decipher the Korean encyclopedia text, I felt almost persuaded that there might be a way forward in WP:ATD. Specifically my tentative thinking was grounded something Taemyr cited:
When I began to work with the Korean text, I thought that finally we'd arrived at the threshold of a something sufficiently specific that "normal editing" could commence. Now what?
Now I'm convinced anew that AfD was always the right thing to do, and that it was foolish to try to figure out how to salvage a situation which was hopeless to begin with. I'm puzzled by this newest gambit. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC) reply
Korea communication buy altitude does generally. 1403 Korea ([thay] bell 3) from the life country received the book seal, that next year Japan they knew and the car was formed (as many as) General justice should have received the book seal, to China * Korea * Japan between serves the powerful * diplomatic relation of relation of neighboring countries. And then Korea and the Japanese two countries became the relation of neighboring countries country of the situation which is equal, with the Korea king the department head army as the highest power person of the both nations the trade name dispatched the embassador just. This time the embassador whom the Korea king sends with the Japanese king (naming) the department head army just the news agency and just the department head army send to the Korea king embassador the Japanese king company (day) as. As a result of general the communication saran terminology enemy [lyey] (in the equal (equal) one nation between of the position which is) enemies providence (justice), () bears the meaning which is an embassador whom does.
To Korea electricity the embassador traffic of Japan and Japanese dispatch of the Korea embassador accomplishes to 18 times many, the Japanese king resignation Korea dispatch accomplishes to 71 times. The embassador whom the Korea king dispatches but does not have the title of all news agency not to be, the thing is only 8 times in General [i cwung]. For example also the name bought the round of visits company (round of visits) * the round of visits tube (round of visits officialdom) * step round () * the variation tube (officialdoms) * the news agency * the communication tube (officialdoms) the politics which will be etc. not to be, also the goal and organization were various.
The news agency which Korea dispatches from like this point with afterwords same must equip a condition and goal.
Japan just sweeping the title of the news agency initially in the delegation whom dispatches to the department head army 1375 nothing Rome is a consideration time (why the fact that dispatches the embassador who requests nine prohibitions the beginning in General) just bringing up for discussion. But only name the news agency only will be, does not equip the condition and a goal could not.
Came in into a Korea time and the name of the news agency appearing initially 1413 ([thay] bell 13) was, but this meandering political affairs Pak minute (in order from) these moderations for the bottle to be born was discontinued. Has the name of the news agency after that and meandering which is dispatched to Japan 1428 (Sejong 10) the political affairs Pak student (lifestyles) as the delegation below, these dispatch goal general [sup] position sacrifice () was about congratulation and the battlefield army. The dispatch of the after that news agency became regulations and in trillion * one both nations between with symbol of amicable relation of neighboring countries extended in Korea periodic electricity between and total 20 times (Korea electricity 8 time, Korea postscript 12 time) became accomplished. The news agency which is dispatched to Korea periodic Japan (ticket 1) with is same.
Dispatch reason of the news agency the goal Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 and around there is some difference. There was to case Japanese relationship of Korea electricity and the high stake why was old story system as well, in order to solve this problem dispatched the news agency to the department head army just from Korea. Consequently the surface area reason of news agency dispatch why general for the request and a amicable relationship maintenance of nine gold pressures [sup] position congratulation etc. mainly politics * was from the goal which is diplomatic. This piece the Japanese king company which is dispatched to Korea brings east () from Japan and the rice which is a substitution essential goods * the bean * the cotton buys and is a goal which is economic, or the adenoma () on a large scale with the point which is cultural takes Buddhist Sutras of popularity flaw Korea and the pan bell contrasts with from Japan. Meantime the case of Korea postscript immediately after the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592, the [sway] annularity which is a peace negotiations and a fatigue for a state of war conclusion (people) (: Got accompanied by the compatriot who is drifting from the foreign nation and returning), [sup] position congratulation etc. of state search and just the department head army as well politics * dispatched the news agency from the goal which is diplomatic. The Japanese king resignation Korea dispatch was forbidden from the other side Korea postscript Japan. Being the course at Korea electric Japanese king resignation, the etc. damage which is used with aggression of at that time Japanese army which is core flaw, from Korea does not allow Japanese king resignation coming up to the capital, was because not being. The Japanese king resignation dispatch after that is discontinued, substitution about the department head army rises just and difference why () to make substitute becomes. By the way the delegation who is dispatched at 1607 is immediately after the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 * 1617 * 1624 the designation which is did not do the news agency not to be, `reply and also [sway] annular companies (reply) 'wrote. The reason from Korea only this time does but the [khwu] does not recognize and (virtue) just department with the communication country () which is the possibility of leading a providence, because not being is. The title of the news agency being used again, starting from 1636 rises, to like this background is operating with the cause to which the fluctuation of East Asia international situation is principal. Namely, influence shift of life * blue and the collapse of the neutralization order () which follows in him with the new regiment feeling did to make the relation of neighboring countries relationship of the neutralization construct () which burns in trillion * one both nations. The news agency of Korea postscript blue excludes one book seal setup consequently in the center, there is meaning which is a diplomatic privacy which is an establishment of the equal diplomacy which is an indigenous of trillion * one both nations. From like this international environmental inside goal of the news agency and stand orgin * example only * were to the itinerary etc. contents and the format and the news agency became regulations. And the hemp helped to one side and as a result of with line () above the substantial was and for [kyo] a system door sells lawsuit () and why () established. After that the news agency dispatch becomes regulations, dispatch goal ostensibly the most general [sup] position was congratulation. Put out but with every that time different had a reason and object. For example, 1636 regiment feeling establishment of Japan which follows in influence shift of life * blue and, support and state search of credential rehash event after that Tsu Island week, 1643 institutional after that of restraint and also unit () even with Korean fiddle policy () of abridgment negotiation and Japan of the trade volume which extends about the primeval arm (abiogenesis) were state search about pressure of the blue country. 1655 after that the news agency did Japan `highway Korea ' () confirms information respecting, to be, 1682 helped the hemp and they were 7 mourning morning fair promises (morning fair promise) for a trade control. 1711 the news agency Oh the relationship of the friendship which with honor maintenance and Japan of the nation is continuous was goal about diplomatic formal opening a court of [khwu] three meal (white) under this. 1719 difference why (people) 'treaty contracting etc. they are `tickets from diplomatic policy delivery and hemp degree of Korea had the pending issue of the both nations which is concrete about diplomatic formal return. Came in into a 18th century but the situation of the continent should have been stabilized became more formal the pending question where also the news agency dispatch is diplomatic. Consequently 1748 and 1764 the news agency general [sup] position the congratulation and relation of neighboring countries relationship confirmation became main purpose. Like this tendency will come in into a 19th century and meaning which news agency dispatch is diplomatic will be lost, 1811 news agency will change an itinerary and with `reverse communications () which are formal exchanges a credential from Tsu Island 'will close there was not a news agency which after that regulations to get off, had become. Even after that of course general [sup] every when controlling directly `agency reverse communications () 'or `hemp reverse communication () 'this was decided, was not enforced. When already became this time and the both nations did not have the will which is active about news agency dispatch. 19th century middles, the East Asia world was made to receive the threat of Western influence in addition and from trillion * one both nations the amicable relation of neighboring countries which leads the news agency to dispose in compliance with the foreign recognition which is contrary each other in Western influence, became, the destruction of the relation of neighboring countries setup which is unilateral in compliance with Japan with the lung paragraph of the news agency brought the end of relation of neighboring countries relationship together.
The dispatch process of the news agency with afterwords is same. When the monk of the department head army [sup] this is decided just is new first from Japan, the Tsu Island week just hundred win `tubes [sup] distressed circumstance why in bringing up for discussion order (white: ) 'dispatches to Korea from Japan and informs comes the fact. Immediately afterward again `news agency blue [lay] which request a news agency dispatch why () () 'dispatches. Consequently when the example elegy proposes a pending question, after discussing from regulation, this fact to Waegwan () news agency dispatch is decided from Korea, informs. That rear Tsu Island week the difference which again in order to discuss the various branch problem which in Japanese visit (Japanese visit) of the news agency company follows Korea side and `gentleman brilliant people sells why () 'dispatches to Pusan Waegwan. When consequently the contents which news agency dispatch is concrete is discussed, informs to this regulation from example trillion. After when consulting from regulation, the decision is born and the news agency company is composed. These people departs one sheep and when arrives to east [lay] department, `gentlemen zero who again are dispatched from Tsu Island receives a justice difference why () 'humanity round and after arriving to Tsu Island the guidance of Tsu Island week and even to until Japanese domestic (), receives reciprocates. These people finishes a task and returns until Pusan `gentleman [song] justice differences which again the Tsu Island week nominates why () 'this good line * guides toward Tsu Island and from that place. About news agency composition, the turning point per 1802 employment won from upper tube of force Kim case (Friday) * the director worker () * in compliance with general affairs () etc. being ≪ presentation relation of neighboring countries ≫ volume 5 compiles in detail, is being recorded. The organization contents comes (ticket 2). (Ticket 2) at 1682 ([swuk] bell 8) opened a court and was maintained and the news agency total personnel accomplished to 577 people in the form which is completed. About personnel organization before the tool (systems), about the horse () of meandering inclusion the E door (systems) and clothing with the fact that is provided in that outside and until early there is an awe Roh possibility () of recording a meandering preparation, to here in the travel money () below political affairs, the Imperial gift being instructed is, to end part example grade in the Japanese each cow is provided. Namely, the Japanese king * is shrewd () * to the place of Tsu Island obeying orders () etc. below governing () will live and buys example () ginseng 49 muscle and the good blood () 16 chapters (), the grass-cloth bleached white gun (white) 62 will bloom only, the black hemp (black) 109 will bloom, the Hwang writing brush (writing brushes) 202 bottles (), the position jelly () 360 hall () and lotus direction () 310 (), the cow important mission () 5 bottles () and three phosphorus () 14 muscles, blue profundity () they are 109 annular () etc. Meantime, the news agency company burnt and the boat prepared from naval forces control private operation and minor injury left investigation zero. The steam ship where the person whom conceives burns () 3 ships, the burden the double track which loads () organized with 3 etc. all 6 ships. And the news agency company who is composed of 3 divisions () of political affairs * adverb * the work tube organized at 3 tips (). To first tip including the political affairs which lifts a credential (books) and from that accomplishment causal officer * the communication company * my alcoholic beverage tube until the standing army burnt, the adverb which lifts a political affairs to second tip including and the attendant burnt, to 3rd tip that attendant including the work tube. Like this the delegation who is composed stand orgin is an official diplomatic document and brought a special width (). Just the credential (books) which becomes with name of the Korea king was drawn up in the department head army. And in that outside hemp escape the example trillion truth sold just in bringing up for discussion managements and or the example trillion truth * according to left and position of etc. facing each other stands taking count of crosses was drawn up in the title which corresponds in him. Specially, credential size the rule was coming to decide in case, certainly did to defend the format. Is a special width from here and says the item of the futures which will decrease. Records the goal and a business matter of the embassador in the document of the stand orgin, that this as special width, the type and a water content of futures which sends with the gift in document end or the appendix writes and is in order to draw up with the document which is complete. Special width according to position of the counterpart the sheep of the item and that item came to decide differently. If and special width futures contents or water content from had the character of donation trade (trades).
As a result of the gentleman company departed one sheep and the 2 month degree which arrives to Pusan became disturbance. To these people the yearly direction comes to hold on moderation, but to initially comes to hold from 4 cows of Ch'ungju * Andong * race * Pusan but to hold from only Pusan one place came to postscript and because of public harm came. These people arrived to Pusan and the spiritual unit () from the Neptune system (Neptune) lived. This Neptune system did (day) [thayk] propitious day and that day was carried out rightly the news agency company leaves toward Japan from Pusan. The Neptune system the news agency ≪ soups dozes ≫ antidotes of the [lyey] () gave with the ceremony which immediately before the direction which will dance is essential and to do was carried out. Namely, the spiritual unit prepares the altar to the high place and sacrifice and the lung hundred () prepares and puts and the deacon () social lower part seriously, was advanced. My intention to fight contents new grudge () in ≪ year type rock ≫ in detail, is recorded. The spiritual unit with this place at the scenic spot of Pusan where the news agency company and karma are deep, they left toward Japan from this place and they returned. 1614 after the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 (storehouse navy 6) patrolling company volume half () in this place the nail makes the wave crest lake and battleship but mooring (mooring) at the place where does, it the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 harrowing experience is mirror making character one measure. And about 10 became shot in that side and made emission of semen of the style of architecture which is typical () built the high hill. Spiritual () as does this emission of semen, but this `Andong which is a main building of volume half ' in old days spiritual adopting the name in order to do does. The trace of the spiritual large lake which moors the battleship did and until only 1906 [wan] year remains, but filling up the Japanese after that (: The seashore filled up the riverside and one which makes with the land) with disappeared. Meantime, from the spiritual unit the Neptune system the news agency which lives lifted a credential and 3 and in steam ships divided burnt and that departed day by day and escorts and in the hemp tip which was guided the hemp and [ni] right () after entering port, vice-in () with entered and double track 3 ship. After receiving the yearly direction of escape from hemp vice-middle, the mileage cancer () elders (the senior) receives 2 humanity and justice guidances and also this height passes by () from the Hukuoka present (luck), Oh car E three height (: Under) took on route and three toe age did and went against and ascended. After that each changing mind entertainment and received a good line and the citron which is waiting () * the follower (people) with the sea route and the wall chorus which will bloom (choruses) did and followed agency () after reaching, the tear glands () with transferred and landed and east * stands the long-cherished desire company (long-cherished desires) entered. After that 6 ships Oh as various unit people to leave only the soup line and some name expense staff () this times which provides burns and urethra right () lands. Rose next and E (person) to receive a help [kyo] toes () with headed on the land route. Nothing Rome (at the time) just department, here was terminus, but just department to time, excepted 1617 and all went until a degree. The [khwu] the company () departed and 1620's `Korean highway which constructs especially (people) 'passed and also the chi passed by (). To the moderation the pontoon bridge () was, but 1682 news agency company this route from the mask “places the bridge the doubling which is used as many as became 300 ships.” “The heat rays () expense and season chromatic fortune sold and () the expense about thousands reached to the gold.”As is descriptive. Meantime, five car person height () arrives and the lion which department sends from just (: ) received greeting and on the land route entered into a degree in the destination person. The quarters from 1682 time does with the long-cherished desire company but the eastern long-cherished desire company (long-cherished desires) with changed after. Interchange from the visitor company which the news agency company passes as the wall chorus which one poetry and prose * science will bloom the cultural coat interchange which does did characteristic. And was gorgeous follows hereupon and buys, one entertainment did finally one cause which gets stringent the finance of Japan becoming. Specially, Japanese scholar Oh [khwu] three meal under this (white) criticizes this situation and system attempts the visibility of provision about news agency reception, did. The inside of the visibility which he presents 5 places (* * *, to the return route only) with limits an entertainment place with to the king, to provide only the food from the place which is different. Like this reform bill ended finally at once and went back continued again in form heretofore and a good brazier fortune entertainment. 1636 * 1643 * the news agency companies silver which is dispatched at 1655 the [khwu] and the graveyard of general (day) enforcement receiving a worship, did while stays in degree. Also, 1636 vice-in compliance with a bringing up for discussion request just the circus troupe () there was public performance, but 1680 vice-this for horseback re-(at) the dispatch became common usage. Department [thayk] came to do from just, propitious day there was permission and credential and passed over a special width and reply of General after several days * the commodity and the gold and silver came to give with a return below special width and political affairs, again to the return route the route which comes with a Tsu Island week together they turned away and they rose. When the entertainment and reception of the feudal loads come initially and came to do with the same, the hemp gentleman [song] justice difference why went with back and after entering port into Pusan, toward one sheep returned. To traffic schedule of the news agencies there being some difference, one most part 8 months became disturbance from 5 months. To the distance duration which but sultry the summer or severe winter puts meandering which extends at about 2 years was. 1428 (Sejong 10) general [sup] position from congratulation 1811 news agencies which are started deteriorated, (favorable condition 11) the reverse communication which exchanges a credential from Tsu Island this last from history () with they disappeared. The news agency Kim paganism company 334 person arrived to Tsu Island last first and department general sent just and came and lived held, that waits, the both nations which follows in the rules and which comes to decide buys the new publication monotonous event, Japan just with bringing up for discussion prohibition the fact that forbids the contact of the news agency company and with before was different features in the Japanese people. About the news agency the reaction of the Japanese not only the political charge people until being early in the follower including a general safety, * the jelly visitor * the populace in order to call forth a huge interest is. The news agency every the place which they visit the painting and writing * poetry and prose * leaves letter etc. plentifully, it comes to make the folding screen * sliced raw fish volume * in form of line engraving etc., becomes popular widely, like this things come and until currently electrolysis they are descending. Meantime, the news agencies returned with domestic and leaving the knowledge rock which undergoes from Japan, they did. These records record the facts which the people which participate to at that time news agency experience from Japan in diary format and they leave and with the fact that puts, observes a at that time civilization interchange becomes the good data. The news agency not only meaning which is diplomatic is a relationship maintenance with Japan is science * ideology * technique * artistic coat cultural exchange from like this side and will say that also has the meaning which one is cultural.
Taemyr counsels me to withdraw the AfD listing. If advised again to do so, I will comply with good adice ... but then what?
In re-visiting Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, I was inspired to examine Wikipedia:Userfication#Userfication of deleted content. If someone else is able to stretch WP:AGF farther than I'm able to do -- if we assume that everything above is really nothing more than a big mistake, then would it be reasonable to consider "userfication" of the text posted at Joseon tongsinsa? The citations look like bad faith to me, but the reference source is real. Caspian blue counsels me to keep focused on the potential of this article.
Frankly, I don't quite understand what this would achieve ... but it could be construed as a recognition of the importance of Korean contributions, especially in the process of developing further articles which flow from Foreign relations of Imperial China.
Both Joseon Tongsinsa and Korean missions to Edo at present account for only a relatively short 300-year period in the history of the Joseon Dynasty, and Korean scholarship will continue to be important as this subject evolves over time.
This could provide an excellent opportunity for collaboration -- the complementary historical records which were developed using primarily Korean sources or using primarily Japanese sources could be explored jointly. Just because this seems to have started off badly doesn't mean that more constructive alternatives can't be imagined. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC) reply
# REDIRECT Korean missions to Edo # {:{R from alternative language}}
In response to Taemyr's well-reasoned and patient counsel, I have been persuaded that it is no longer essential that Joseon tongsinsa be deleted, but that does not mean I disagree with Stifle. With Taemyr's help, I've begun to think I may see another way to handle what seemed like an intractable problem, but I truly don't know what's best.
Fundamentally, the impeccable posture of Taemyr's wiki- weltanshauung still troubles me because it necesssarily implies a deliberative cognitive dissonance, a stance which is undeniably best in this setting .... This is in no way a criticism or a complaint. I have nothing but thanks to offer Taemyr as I acknowledge his thoughtful assistance in helping me begin to re-evaluate a small problem from a broader perspective.
There is no reason for
Taemyr to have expanded the ambit of this AfD evaluation to include a consideration of
Liancourt rocks, also known as Dokdo (or Tokto) (독도/獨島, literally "solitary island") in
Korean and as Takeshima (竹島, , literally "bamboo island") in
Japanese,
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4] which is currently move and semi-protected. There is no cause for complaint if
Stifle was entirely unaware of the following not-"normal editing" notice which has been posted by administrators on this not-unique page:
Although Brianyoumans may have known about controversial Dokdo class amphibious assault ship [5] [6] and about ROK naval manoevers last month [7] [8] , there was no obvious reason to acknowledge that current events might impact an AfD concerning a 17th-19th century subject. Indeed, Brianyoumans constructively noted that "the Tongsinsas seem to have been seized upon as an example of good Korea-Japan relations."
I did know about something about these subjects -- enough to be scrupulously concerned in crafting Korean missions to Edo so as to avoid, as best I could, any plausible cause for controversy. That I was unsuccessful in real world terms does not undercut the extent to which I did manage to comply explicitly with WP:V -- and my efforts were for naught. Two specific sentences informed this AfD nomination; and to both my response was a clear, unequivocal, disgusted NO -- NOT POSSIBLE:
The sum of Caspian blue's contributions affirm my dour pessimism. If Caspian blue is joined by other like-minded tag team editors who similarly feign wounded indignation, angered offense, and stumbling-block misunderstandings as a disruptive tactic, the success of that strategy is virtually assured. Any hopes for collaborative work on this article are dashed. In the face of what seems like adolescent nationalistic ardour, any scholarly collaboration becomes quickly pointless -- especially in light of the entirely ineffective dispute resolution processes now in place.
Wikipedia has been proven to be quite ill-equipped to deal with a concerted, agenda-driven attack of the sort which has been directed at Liancourt rocks. Without a strategy to avert the kind of failure which characterizes that article about an outcrop in the what the Koreans call the Eastern Sea and others call the Sea of Japan, this quickly becomes worse than a waste of time. The dignified and sober Taemyr asks "What is best?" Stifle thinks deletion is a better course of action. I myself don't know, but I would invite consideration of the following:
It is entirely likely that Caspian blue and others similarly disposed will not realize that the Joseon era Silhak school of scholarship which underpins the historic salutatory significance of a Korea-centric dialectic has its roots in the same Neo-Confucianism (성리학) which profoundly affected Japan's Yushima Seidō (湯島聖堂) and the Hayashi clan (林氏, Hayashi-shi).
Given the tenor and tone of the run-on paragraph Caspian blue has spewed out, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that an indignant, offended and angry critic won't otherwise know or allow me to explain that the 19th century version of Nihon Ōdai Ichiran which has been so profoundly disparaged is, in fact, the first non-European history text compiled by a Japanese author and published in the West.
An aroused anti-Japanese bias would likely inhibit a willingness to learn that, while this may not be the first printed description of Korean sovereignty expressing itself through diplomatic initiatives, it is amongst the earliest to be widely disseminated in the West.
In the diatribe above, the mere fact that a Japanese source did mention a relevant Japanese era name was construed as evidence of an anti-Korean insult which deserved a resounding rebuff ... and WP:V becomes utterly irrelevant in such circumstances.
Caspian blue points out that the Korean ambassadors are neither Japanese nor Chinese. Yes, but that complaint overlooks the fact that Hangul was disfavoured even in the 17th century Joseon court; and what else was Hayashi Gahō, the 17th century author to do but to record the transliterations of Korean names in 17th century Japanese and Chinese? Julius Klaproth, the 18th century editor of Isaac Titsingh's work, and Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat, the first Professor of Chinese at the University of Paris, collaborated on pre- Hepburn transliterations to which Caspian blue objects vociferously. In the absence of anything better, this proffered text doesn't deserve derision; and that very derisive contempt diminishes my willingness to engage in a discussion which likely has no chance of enhancing the quality of the article.
My plausibly constructive action and my potentially collaborative initiative in incorporating un-sourced modern McCune-Reischauer romanizations or Revised Romanizations of Hangul names from Joseon Tongsinsa in the body of Korean missions to Edo could have been construed as a cooperative gesture rather than as a further cause for offense -- but no. NO -- that's not how it played out.
No, no -- perhaps only an impractical optimism underpins my hopes for anything better.
No, no -- this doesn't bode well. Perhaps Stifle is correct. Maybe deleting the article is best after all.
Perhaps the only practical way forward is to address close scrutiny to sentence-by-sentence edits to Korean missions to Edo as they develop over the coming months and years. -- Tenmei ( talk) 20:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC) reply
You're so out of line with such disdainful personal attacks. I warned you two times, but enough is enough. Look at your own writing. How disgraceful for yourself, please do not taint the page with such behaviors. You stated that you nominated this for deletion (not merging just deleting the valuable content) is because of me with your absurd bias. Your continued incivility and personal attack make thing that your reasoning sounds implausible even more, and I doubt that you have even intention to collaborate with other people. If you can't stop yourself, formal procedure would be suitable. Do not drag irrelevant matters to here for seeking your own excuse for the poor AfD nomination. -- Caspian blue ( talk) 23:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC) -- Be specific, precise, exact. NO, we aren't going down this path. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC) reply
The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. The deletion debate has evolved into personal attacks and long winded discussions that have long went beyond the scope of this AFD. seicer | talk | contribs 14:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC) reply
Proposed for deletion because of edit history and unverifiable content. (1) More time, effort and care were invested in wiki-tagging for improvement than originator invested in text draft, and (2) there have been no other editors willing or able to address substantive problems which remain in this stagnant article. Tenmei ( talk) 16:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC) reply
Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.
I felt encouraged when I saw references had been added to Joseon tongsinsa, but this newest cause for dismay is bitter. The following in-line citations refer to an inaccessible article in a Korean on-line encyclopedia 통신사 (通信使).
The following is a Babelfish translation of that on-line Korean text. In the narrow context established by these four citations, I don't see how it is possible to construe the following as verification or validation -- setting aside for the moment what is explained at Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources. There isn't a match between the source cited and the sentences which are the object of the citation exercise.
I muddled through the onerous task of creating the machine-translated text below; and I carefully read the prose as best I could, highlighting the Gregorian calendar dates in bold font. What I found was troubling when re-evaluated in the following relevant contexts:
Despite WP:AGF, I can't see how this can be explained away. I can't figure out how to address this consistent with WP:Civ and WP:PA. In the world outside Wikipedia's consensus reality, this would be a blunt demonstration of "bad faith." To describe this travesty as "disingenuous" is too mild, but I'd begin there.
The prescient sense of alarm which impelled me to post an AfD listing now seems justified, even if it is the case, as Taemyr argues here, that some other strategy would have been better than listing an AfD while hoping that the Article Rescue Squadron step in.
At WP:BEFORE, one sentence stands out for me: "If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a good candidate for AfD." As I understand it, Taemyr construes this sentence to mean that I should withdraw my AfD nomination. If that recommendation still stands, then I need to re-evaluate my understanding of what "normal editing" means.
In light of this "References" sub-section, if withdrawal still remains a better way to proceed, I have the capacity to listen and to act on good advice. Before I began trying to decipher the Korean encyclopedia text, I felt almost persuaded that there might be a way forward in WP:ATD. Specifically my tentative thinking was grounded something Taemyr cited:
When I began to work with the Korean text, I thought that finally we'd arrived at the threshold of a something sufficiently specific that "normal editing" could commence. Now what?
Now I'm convinced anew that AfD was always the right thing to do, and that it was foolish to try to figure out how to salvage a situation which was hopeless to begin with. I'm puzzled by this newest gambit. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC) reply
Korea communication buy altitude does generally. 1403 Korea ([thay] bell 3) from the life country received the book seal, that next year Japan they knew and the car was formed (as many as) General justice should have received the book seal, to China * Korea * Japan between serves the powerful * diplomatic relation of relation of neighboring countries. And then Korea and the Japanese two countries became the relation of neighboring countries country of the situation which is equal, with the Korea king the department head army as the highest power person of the both nations the trade name dispatched the embassador just. This time the embassador whom the Korea king sends with the Japanese king (naming) the department head army just the news agency and just the department head army send to the Korea king embassador the Japanese king company (day) as. As a result of general the communication saran terminology enemy [lyey] (in the equal (equal) one nation between of the position which is) enemies providence (justice), () bears the meaning which is an embassador whom does.
To Korea electricity the embassador traffic of Japan and Japanese dispatch of the Korea embassador accomplishes to 18 times many, the Japanese king resignation Korea dispatch accomplishes to 71 times. The embassador whom the Korea king dispatches but does not have the title of all news agency not to be, the thing is only 8 times in General [i cwung]. For example also the name bought the round of visits company (round of visits) * the round of visits tube (round of visits officialdom) * step round () * the variation tube (officialdoms) * the news agency * the communication tube (officialdoms) the politics which will be etc. not to be, also the goal and organization were various.
The news agency which Korea dispatches from like this point with afterwords same must equip a condition and goal.
Japan just sweeping the title of the news agency initially in the delegation whom dispatches to the department head army 1375 nothing Rome is a consideration time (why the fact that dispatches the embassador who requests nine prohibitions the beginning in General) just bringing up for discussion. But only name the news agency only will be, does not equip the condition and a goal could not.
Came in into a Korea time and the name of the news agency appearing initially 1413 ([thay] bell 13) was, but this meandering political affairs Pak minute (in order from) these moderations for the bottle to be born was discontinued. Has the name of the news agency after that and meandering which is dispatched to Japan 1428 (Sejong 10) the political affairs Pak student (lifestyles) as the delegation below, these dispatch goal general [sup] position sacrifice () was about congratulation and the battlefield army. The dispatch of the after that news agency became regulations and in trillion * one both nations between with symbol of amicable relation of neighboring countries extended in Korea periodic electricity between and total 20 times (Korea electricity 8 time, Korea postscript 12 time) became accomplished. The news agency which is dispatched to Korea periodic Japan (ticket 1) with is same.
Dispatch reason of the news agency the goal Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 and around there is some difference. There was to case Japanese relationship of Korea electricity and the high stake why was old story system as well, in order to solve this problem dispatched the news agency to the department head army just from Korea. Consequently the surface area reason of news agency dispatch why general for the request and a amicable relationship maintenance of nine gold pressures [sup] position congratulation etc. mainly politics * was from the goal which is diplomatic. This piece the Japanese king company which is dispatched to Korea brings east () from Japan and the rice which is a substitution essential goods * the bean * the cotton buys and is a goal which is economic, or the adenoma () on a large scale with the point which is cultural takes Buddhist Sutras of popularity flaw Korea and the pan bell contrasts with from Japan. Meantime the case of Korea postscript immediately after the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592, the [sway] annularity which is a peace negotiations and a fatigue for a state of war conclusion (people) (: Got accompanied by the compatriot who is drifting from the foreign nation and returning), [sup] position congratulation etc. of state search and just the department head army as well politics * dispatched the news agency from the goal which is diplomatic. The Japanese king resignation Korea dispatch was forbidden from the other side Korea postscript Japan. Being the course at Korea electric Japanese king resignation, the etc. damage which is used with aggression of at that time Japanese army which is core flaw, from Korea does not allow Japanese king resignation coming up to the capital, was because not being. The Japanese king resignation dispatch after that is discontinued, substitution about the department head army rises just and difference why () to make substitute becomes. By the way the delegation who is dispatched at 1607 is immediately after the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 * 1617 * 1624 the designation which is did not do the news agency not to be, `reply and also [sway] annular companies (reply) 'wrote. The reason from Korea only this time does but the [khwu] does not recognize and (virtue) just department with the communication country () which is the possibility of leading a providence, because not being is. The title of the news agency being used again, starting from 1636 rises, to like this background is operating with the cause to which the fluctuation of East Asia international situation is principal. Namely, influence shift of life * blue and the collapse of the neutralization order () which follows in him with the new regiment feeling did to make the relation of neighboring countries relationship of the neutralization construct () which burns in trillion * one both nations. The news agency of Korea postscript blue excludes one book seal setup consequently in the center, there is meaning which is a diplomatic privacy which is an establishment of the equal diplomacy which is an indigenous of trillion * one both nations. From like this international environmental inside goal of the news agency and stand orgin * example only * were to the itinerary etc. contents and the format and the news agency became regulations. And the hemp helped to one side and as a result of with line () above the substantial was and for [kyo] a system door sells lawsuit () and why () established. After that the news agency dispatch becomes regulations, dispatch goal ostensibly the most general [sup] position was congratulation. Put out but with every that time different had a reason and object. For example, 1636 regiment feeling establishment of Japan which follows in influence shift of life * blue and, support and state search of credential rehash event after that Tsu Island week, 1643 institutional after that of restraint and also unit () even with Korean fiddle policy () of abridgment negotiation and Japan of the trade volume which extends about the primeval arm (abiogenesis) were state search about pressure of the blue country. 1655 after that the news agency did Japan `highway Korea ' () confirms information respecting, to be, 1682 helped the hemp and they were 7 mourning morning fair promises (morning fair promise) for a trade control. 1711 the news agency Oh the relationship of the friendship which with honor maintenance and Japan of the nation is continuous was goal about diplomatic formal opening a court of [khwu] three meal (white) under this. 1719 difference why (people) 'treaty contracting etc. they are `tickets from diplomatic policy delivery and hemp degree of Korea had the pending issue of the both nations which is concrete about diplomatic formal return. Came in into a 18th century but the situation of the continent should have been stabilized became more formal the pending question where also the news agency dispatch is diplomatic. Consequently 1748 and 1764 the news agency general [sup] position the congratulation and relation of neighboring countries relationship confirmation became main purpose. Like this tendency will come in into a 19th century and meaning which news agency dispatch is diplomatic will be lost, 1811 news agency will change an itinerary and with `reverse communications () which are formal exchanges a credential from Tsu Island 'will close there was not a news agency which after that regulations to get off, had become. Even after that of course general [sup] every when controlling directly `agency reverse communications () 'or `hemp reverse communication () 'this was decided, was not enforced. When already became this time and the both nations did not have the will which is active about news agency dispatch. 19th century middles, the East Asia world was made to receive the threat of Western influence in addition and from trillion * one both nations the amicable relation of neighboring countries which leads the news agency to dispose in compliance with the foreign recognition which is contrary each other in Western influence, became, the destruction of the relation of neighboring countries setup which is unilateral in compliance with Japan with the lung paragraph of the news agency brought the end of relation of neighboring countries relationship together.
The dispatch process of the news agency with afterwords is same. When the monk of the department head army [sup] this is decided just is new first from Japan, the Tsu Island week just hundred win `tubes [sup] distressed circumstance why in bringing up for discussion order (white: ) 'dispatches to Korea from Japan and informs comes the fact. Immediately afterward again `news agency blue [lay] which request a news agency dispatch why () () 'dispatches. Consequently when the example elegy proposes a pending question, after discussing from regulation, this fact to Waegwan () news agency dispatch is decided from Korea, informs. That rear Tsu Island week the difference which again in order to discuss the various branch problem which in Japanese visit (Japanese visit) of the news agency company follows Korea side and `gentleman brilliant people sells why () 'dispatches to Pusan Waegwan. When consequently the contents which news agency dispatch is concrete is discussed, informs to this regulation from example trillion. After when consulting from regulation, the decision is born and the news agency company is composed. These people departs one sheep and when arrives to east [lay] department, `gentlemen zero who again are dispatched from Tsu Island receives a justice difference why () 'humanity round and after arriving to Tsu Island the guidance of Tsu Island week and even to until Japanese domestic (), receives reciprocates. These people finishes a task and returns until Pusan `gentleman [song] justice differences which again the Tsu Island week nominates why () 'this good line * guides toward Tsu Island and from that place. About news agency composition, the turning point per 1802 employment won from upper tube of force Kim case (Friday) * the director worker () * in compliance with general affairs () etc. being ≪ presentation relation of neighboring countries ≫ volume 5 compiles in detail, is being recorded. The organization contents comes (ticket 2). (Ticket 2) at 1682 ([swuk] bell 8) opened a court and was maintained and the news agency total personnel accomplished to 577 people in the form which is completed. About personnel organization before the tool (systems), about the horse () of meandering inclusion the E door (systems) and clothing with the fact that is provided in that outside and until early there is an awe Roh possibility () of recording a meandering preparation, to here in the travel money () below political affairs, the Imperial gift being instructed is, to end part example grade in the Japanese each cow is provided. Namely, the Japanese king * is shrewd () * to the place of Tsu Island obeying orders () etc. below governing () will live and buys example () ginseng 49 muscle and the good blood () 16 chapters (), the grass-cloth bleached white gun (white) 62 will bloom only, the black hemp (black) 109 will bloom, the Hwang writing brush (writing brushes) 202 bottles (), the position jelly () 360 hall () and lotus direction () 310 (), the cow important mission () 5 bottles () and three phosphorus () 14 muscles, blue profundity () they are 109 annular () etc. Meantime, the news agency company burnt and the boat prepared from naval forces control private operation and minor injury left investigation zero. The steam ship where the person whom conceives burns () 3 ships, the burden the double track which loads () organized with 3 etc. all 6 ships. And the news agency company who is composed of 3 divisions () of political affairs * adverb * the work tube organized at 3 tips (). To first tip including the political affairs which lifts a credential (books) and from that accomplishment causal officer * the communication company * my alcoholic beverage tube until the standing army burnt, the adverb which lifts a political affairs to second tip including and the attendant burnt, to 3rd tip that attendant including the work tube. Like this the delegation who is composed stand orgin is an official diplomatic document and brought a special width (). Just the credential (books) which becomes with name of the Korea king was drawn up in the department head army. And in that outside hemp escape the example trillion truth sold just in bringing up for discussion managements and or the example trillion truth * according to left and position of etc. facing each other stands taking count of crosses was drawn up in the title which corresponds in him. Specially, credential size the rule was coming to decide in case, certainly did to defend the format. Is a special width from here and says the item of the futures which will decrease. Records the goal and a business matter of the embassador in the document of the stand orgin, that this as special width, the type and a water content of futures which sends with the gift in document end or the appendix writes and is in order to draw up with the document which is complete. Special width according to position of the counterpart the sheep of the item and that item came to decide differently. If and special width futures contents or water content from had the character of donation trade (trades).
As a result of the gentleman company departed one sheep and the 2 month degree which arrives to Pusan became disturbance. To these people the yearly direction comes to hold on moderation, but to initially comes to hold from 4 cows of Ch'ungju * Andong * race * Pusan but to hold from only Pusan one place came to postscript and because of public harm came. These people arrived to Pusan and the spiritual unit () from the Neptune system (Neptune) lived. This Neptune system did (day) [thayk] propitious day and that day was carried out rightly the news agency company leaves toward Japan from Pusan. The Neptune system the news agency ≪ soups dozes ≫ antidotes of the [lyey] () gave with the ceremony which immediately before the direction which will dance is essential and to do was carried out. Namely, the spiritual unit prepares the altar to the high place and sacrifice and the lung hundred () prepares and puts and the deacon () social lower part seriously, was advanced. My intention to fight contents new grudge () in ≪ year type rock ≫ in detail, is recorded. The spiritual unit with this place at the scenic spot of Pusan where the news agency company and karma are deep, they left toward Japan from this place and they returned. 1614 after the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 (storehouse navy 6) patrolling company volume half () in this place the nail makes the wave crest lake and battleship but mooring (mooring) at the place where does, it the Japanese invasion of Korea in 1592 harrowing experience is mirror making character one measure. And about 10 became shot in that side and made emission of semen of the style of architecture which is typical () built the high hill. Spiritual () as does this emission of semen, but this `Andong which is a main building of volume half ' in old days spiritual adopting the name in order to do does. The trace of the spiritual large lake which moors the battleship did and until only 1906 [wan] year remains, but filling up the Japanese after that (: The seashore filled up the riverside and one which makes with the land) with disappeared. Meantime, from the spiritual unit the Neptune system the news agency which lives lifted a credential and 3 and in steam ships divided burnt and that departed day by day and escorts and in the hemp tip which was guided the hemp and [ni] right () after entering port, vice-in () with entered and double track 3 ship. After receiving the yearly direction of escape from hemp vice-middle, the mileage cancer () elders (the senior) receives 2 humanity and justice guidances and also this height passes by () from the Hukuoka present (luck), Oh car E three height (: Under) took on route and three toe age did and went against and ascended. After that each changing mind entertainment and received a good line and the citron which is waiting () * the follower (people) with the sea route and the wall chorus which will bloom (choruses) did and followed agency () after reaching, the tear glands () with transferred and landed and east * stands the long-cherished desire company (long-cherished desires) entered. After that 6 ships Oh as various unit people to leave only the soup line and some name expense staff () this times which provides burns and urethra right () lands. Rose next and E (person) to receive a help [kyo] toes () with headed on the land route. Nothing Rome (at the time) just department, here was terminus, but just department to time, excepted 1617 and all went until a degree. The [khwu] the company () departed and 1620's `Korean highway which constructs especially (people) 'passed and also the chi passed by (). To the moderation the pontoon bridge () was, but 1682 news agency company this route from the mask “places the bridge the doubling which is used as many as became 300 ships.” “The heat rays () expense and season chromatic fortune sold and () the expense about thousands reached to the gold.”As is descriptive. Meantime, five car person height () arrives and the lion which department sends from just (: ) received greeting and on the land route entered into a degree in the destination person. The quarters from 1682 time does with the long-cherished desire company but the eastern long-cherished desire company (long-cherished desires) with changed after. Interchange from the visitor company which the news agency company passes as the wall chorus which one poetry and prose * science will bloom the cultural coat interchange which does did characteristic. And was gorgeous follows hereupon and buys, one entertainment did finally one cause which gets stringent the finance of Japan becoming. Specially, Japanese scholar Oh [khwu] three meal under this (white) criticizes this situation and system attempts the visibility of provision about news agency reception, did. The inside of the visibility which he presents 5 places (* * *, to the return route only) with limits an entertainment place with to the king, to provide only the food from the place which is different. Like this reform bill ended finally at once and went back continued again in form heretofore and a good brazier fortune entertainment. 1636 * 1643 * the news agency companies silver which is dispatched at 1655 the [khwu] and the graveyard of general (day) enforcement receiving a worship, did while stays in degree. Also, 1636 vice-in compliance with a bringing up for discussion request just the circus troupe () there was public performance, but 1680 vice-this for horseback re-(at) the dispatch became common usage. Department [thayk] came to do from just, propitious day there was permission and credential and passed over a special width and reply of General after several days * the commodity and the gold and silver came to give with a return below special width and political affairs, again to the return route the route which comes with a Tsu Island week together they turned away and they rose. When the entertainment and reception of the feudal loads come initially and came to do with the same, the hemp gentleman [song] justice difference why went with back and after entering port into Pusan, toward one sheep returned. To traffic schedule of the news agencies there being some difference, one most part 8 months became disturbance from 5 months. To the distance duration which but sultry the summer or severe winter puts meandering which extends at about 2 years was. 1428 (Sejong 10) general [sup] position from congratulation 1811 news agencies which are started deteriorated, (favorable condition 11) the reverse communication which exchanges a credential from Tsu Island this last from history () with they disappeared. The news agency Kim paganism company 334 person arrived to Tsu Island last first and department general sent just and came and lived held, that waits, the both nations which follows in the rules and which comes to decide buys the new publication monotonous event, Japan just with bringing up for discussion prohibition the fact that forbids the contact of the news agency company and with before was different features in the Japanese people. About the news agency the reaction of the Japanese not only the political charge people until being early in the follower including a general safety, * the jelly visitor * the populace in order to call forth a huge interest is. The news agency every the place which they visit the painting and writing * poetry and prose * leaves letter etc. plentifully, it comes to make the folding screen * sliced raw fish volume * in form of line engraving etc., becomes popular widely, like this things come and until currently electrolysis they are descending. Meantime, the news agencies returned with domestic and leaving the knowledge rock which undergoes from Japan, they did. These records record the facts which the people which participate to at that time news agency experience from Japan in diary format and they leave and with the fact that puts, observes a at that time civilization interchange becomes the good data. The news agency not only meaning which is diplomatic is a relationship maintenance with Japan is science * ideology * technique * artistic coat cultural exchange from like this side and will say that also has the meaning which one is cultural.
Taemyr counsels me to withdraw the AfD listing. If advised again to do so, I will comply with good adice ... but then what?
In re-visiting Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, I was inspired to examine Wikipedia:Userfication#Userfication of deleted content. If someone else is able to stretch WP:AGF farther than I'm able to do -- if we assume that everything above is really nothing more than a big mistake, then would it be reasonable to consider "userfication" of the text posted at Joseon tongsinsa? The citations look like bad faith to me, but the reference source is real. Caspian blue counsels me to keep focused on the potential of this article.
Frankly, I don't quite understand what this would achieve ... but it could be construed as a recognition of the importance of Korean contributions, especially in the process of developing further articles which flow from Foreign relations of Imperial China.
Both Joseon Tongsinsa and Korean missions to Edo at present account for only a relatively short 300-year period in the history of the Joseon Dynasty, and Korean scholarship will continue to be important as this subject evolves over time.
This could provide an excellent opportunity for collaboration -- the complementary historical records which were developed using primarily Korean sources or using primarily Japanese sources could be explored jointly. Just because this seems to have started off badly doesn't mean that more constructive alternatives can't be imagined. -- Tenmei ( talk) 19:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC) reply
# REDIRECT Korean missions to Edo # {:{R from alternative language}}
In response to Taemyr's well-reasoned and patient counsel, I have been persuaded that it is no longer essential that Joseon tongsinsa be deleted, but that does not mean I disagree with Stifle. With Taemyr's help, I've begun to think I may see another way to handle what seemed like an intractable problem, but I truly don't know what's best.
Fundamentally, the impeccable posture of Taemyr's wiki- weltanshauung still troubles me because it necesssarily implies a deliberative cognitive dissonance, a stance which is undeniably best in this setting .... This is in no way a criticism or a complaint. I have nothing but thanks to offer Taemyr as I acknowledge his thoughtful assistance in helping me begin to re-evaluate a small problem from a broader perspective.
There is no reason for
Taemyr to have expanded the ambit of this AfD evaluation to include a consideration of
Liancourt rocks, also known as Dokdo (or Tokto) (독도/獨島, literally "solitary island") in
Korean and as Takeshima (竹島, , literally "bamboo island") in
Japanese,
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4] which is currently move and semi-protected. There is no cause for complaint if
Stifle was entirely unaware of the following not-"normal editing" notice which has been posted by administrators on this not-unique page:
Although Brianyoumans may have known about controversial Dokdo class amphibious assault ship [5] [6] and about ROK naval manoevers last month [7] [8] , there was no obvious reason to acknowledge that current events might impact an AfD concerning a 17th-19th century subject. Indeed, Brianyoumans constructively noted that "the Tongsinsas seem to have been seized upon as an example of good Korea-Japan relations."
I did know about something about these subjects -- enough to be scrupulously concerned in crafting Korean missions to Edo so as to avoid, as best I could, any plausible cause for controversy. That I was unsuccessful in real world terms does not undercut the extent to which I did manage to comply explicitly with WP:V -- and my efforts were for naught. Two specific sentences informed this AfD nomination; and to both my response was a clear, unequivocal, disgusted NO -- NOT POSSIBLE:
The sum of Caspian blue's contributions affirm my dour pessimism. If Caspian blue is joined by other like-minded tag team editors who similarly feign wounded indignation, angered offense, and stumbling-block misunderstandings as a disruptive tactic, the success of that strategy is virtually assured. Any hopes for collaborative work on this article are dashed. In the face of what seems like adolescent nationalistic ardour, any scholarly collaboration becomes quickly pointless -- especially in light of the entirely ineffective dispute resolution processes now in place.
Wikipedia has been proven to be quite ill-equipped to deal with a concerted, agenda-driven attack of the sort which has been directed at Liancourt rocks. Without a strategy to avert the kind of failure which characterizes that article about an outcrop in the what the Koreans call the Eastern Sea and others call the Sea of Japan, this quickly becomes worse than a waste of time. The dignified and sober Taemyr asks "What is best?" Stifle thinks deletion is a better course of action. I myself don't know, but I would invite consideration of the following:
It is entirely likely that Caspian blue and others similarly disposed will not realize that the Joseon era Silhak school of scholarship which underpins the historic salutatory significance of a Korea-centric dialectic has its roots in the same Neo-Confucianism (성리학) which profoundly affected Japan's Yushima Seidō (湯島聖堂) and the Hayashi clan (林氏, Hayashi-shi).
Given the tenor and tone of the run-on paragraph Caspian blue has spewed out, it is entirely reasonable to conclude that an indignant, offended and angry critic won't otherwise know or allow me to explain that the 19th century version of Nihon Ōdai Ichiran which has been so profoundly disparaged is, in fact, the first non-European history text compiled by a Japanese author and published in the West.
An aroused anti-Japanese bias would likely inhibit a willingness to learn that, while this may not be the first printed description of Korean sovereignty expressing itself through diplomatic initiatives, it is amongst the earliest to be widely disseminated in the West.
In the diatribe above, the mere fact that a Japanese source did mention a relevant Japanese era name was construed as evidence of an anti-Korean insult which deserved a resounding rebuff ... and WP:V becomes utterly irrelevant in such circumstances.
Caspian blue points out that the Korean ambassadors are neither Japanese nor Chinese. Yes, but that complaint overlooks the fact that Hangul was disfavoured even in the 17th century Joseon court; and what else was Hayashi Gahō, the 17th century author to do but to record the transliterations of Korean names in 17th century Japanese and Chinese? Julius Klaproth, the 18th century editor of Isaac Titsingh's work, and Jean-Pierre Abel-Rémusat, the first Professor of Chinese at the University of Paris, collaborated on pre- Hepburn transliterations to which Caspian blue objects vociferously. In the absence of anything better, this proffered text doesn't deserve derision; and that very derisive contempt diminishes my willingness to engage in a discussion which likely has no chance of enhancing the quality of the article.
My plausibly constructive action and my potentially collaborative initiative in incorporating un-sourced modern McCune-Reischauer romanizations or Revised Romanizations of Hangul names from Joseon Tongsinsa in the body of Korean missions to Edo could have been construed as a cooperative gesture rather than as a further cause for offense -- but no. NO -- that's not how it played out.
No, no -- perhaps only an impractical optimism underpins my hopes for anything better.
No, no -- this doesn't bode well. Perhaps Stifle is correct. Maybe deleting the article is best after all.
Perhaps the only practical way forward is to address close scrutiny to sentence-by-sentence edits to Korean missions to Edo as they develop over the coming months and years. -- Tenmei ( talk) 20:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC) reply
You're so out of line with such disdainful personal attacks. I warned you two times, but enough is enough. Look at your own writing. How disgraceful for yourself, please do not taint the page with such behaviors. You stated that you nominated this for deletion (not merging just deleting the valuable content) is because of me with your absurd bias. Your continued incivility and personal attack make thing that your reasoning sounds implausible even more, and I doubt that you have even intention to collaborate with other people. If you can't stop yourself, formal procedure would be suitable. Do not drag irrelevant matters to here for seeking your own excuse for the poor AfD nomination. -- Caspian blue ( talk) 23:01, 27 August 2008 (UTC) -- Be specific, precise, exact. NO, we aren't going down this path. -- Tenmei ( talk) 23:21, 27 August 2008 (UTC) reply