- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Jordan Road, Hong Kong ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable street in Hong Kong. The article fails to provide sufficient sources or even details in the text, to support its notability. Delete as per Wikipedia:Notability and WP:RS. Note that existence does not prove notability. The road needs to be the a subject covered by the source not simply a location mentioned while discussing some ancillary topic. Rincewind42 ( talk) 08:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC) Rincewind42 ( talk) 08:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per being the naming origin of the MTR Jordan Station and the surrounding (pseudo-)area of Jordan. Also three sources from zh:佐敦道. Agree though that the current state fails to address these. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hisashiyarouin ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 1 August 2014
- Having something named after you isn't the definition of notability used in Wikipedia. The source in the Chinese wiki only show that the road exists. One is simply a traffic ordinance listing Jordan Road among many others that mini-buses cannot drive on. While that is sufficient to verify the claim on the article it is not sufficient to establish notability. Rincewind42 ( talk) 16:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep and rename to
Jordan Road (Hong Kong) to fit disambiguation standards.
to List of streets and roads in Hong Kong for now. Namesakes have no significance. Just like Lancashire Road, a WP:USRD/RCS list could be created later. The road currently does not deserve its own article.The road is notable (after some research), just needs a lot of expansion.— CycloneIsaac ( Talk) 18:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I can't speak to the other street nominations at this time, but Jordan Road is the subject of at least some significant coverage. See, e.g., Streets: Exploring Kowloon 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 18:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC) I added a brief history section to the article based on this ref. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 19:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - Major street in one of the centers of Hong Kong. If it's notable enough for there to be a station, Jordan Station, and a pier, Jordan Road Ferry Pier, it's notable enough for WP. Significant coverage easily found too [1] (also found by the anon). -- Oakshade ( talk) 01:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your using "named after" to mean "a dedication made to an important place of person." In that sense, Jordan Road doesn't really have a station and a pier named after it. The station is located on Jordan Road and the Pier was too until reclamation work moved it. Jordon Road is simply the address of these places and nothing more. Rincewind42 ( talk) 03:04, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. A major street in a major city, and, as noted by 24.151.10.165, substantive coverage exists. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 05:10, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note that Wikipedia is not a directory and Wikipedia is not travelguide. Being a major street in a major city is not the criteria for inclusion under notability. The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. Also bear in mind WP:LOTSOFSOURCES. It is not suffient to say srouces exit within this debate. You must point to the source as not all sources are reliable or sufficient. Rincewind42 ( talk) 16:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Redirect (Switched from Keep after further research) to
List of streets and roads in Hong Kong.
Per WP:ROADOUTCOMES it is a major road with the cultural and historical context necessary to establish notability.Per WP:ROADOUTCOMES it is a major road but lacks the coverage in reliable sources necessary to establish notability. The pier and the station are both certainly both notable, but notability is not inherited. I can only find a single source that mentions the road in depth, which is insufficient for notability purposes Philg88 ♦ talk 08:26, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- While multiple sources are "generally expected,"
WP:GNG does not and has never required more than one. It all depends, as GNG states, on the quality and depth of coverage. The
source found above is very in-depth that goes on multiple book pages and actually gives more than the usual "multiple" coverages on other subjects combined. --
Oakshade (
talk) 16:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Two (very small) pages in fact while most of the first one is taken up by a map. And it's a travel guide to exploring Kowloon rather than an academic/historical source. Not enough weight there IMHO to carry it across the GNG threshold.
Philg88 ♦
talk 19:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I count six pages (not small), pages 60 through 65. It's basically an entire chapter devoted to Jourdan Road. --
Oakshade (
talk) 19:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, the entire chapter is entitled "Jordan Road", but aside from the minimal coverage mentioned above, the remainder is vignettes about Yau ma Tei Typhoon Shelter, Yue Hwa Department Store, Kowloon Union Church and Manse and the Diocesan Girls School. Coverage of entities in Jordan Road doesn't make the road notable based on the above mentioned principle of
notability not being inherited.
Philg88 ♦
talk 21:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- All encapsulated on Jordan Road. Besides, we're only talking about English language sources in a Chinese language dominated region. If this coverage exists already in English, most certainly more exists in Chinese. --
Oakshade (
talk) 22:47, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Really? I can't find anything through a
google book search.--
180.172.239.231 (
talk) 23:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
Oakshade: More sources do not exist in Chinese because that's something I always check WRT China/Hong Kong articles. There are passing mentions of bus routes and buildings in the street but nothing more substantive.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I frequently find sources in English that others miss, but not being a Chinese reader, I can't confirm that say any of these might be appropriate sources. While I trust you've made some effort to look, I just don't see this as the "proof" end-all on sources existing in Chinese or not.-- Oakshade ( talk) 19:58, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
Oakshade: More sources do not exist in Chinese because that's something I always check WRT China/Hong Kong articles. There are passing mentions of bus routes and buildings in the street but nothing more substantive.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Really? I can't find anything through a
google book search.--
180.172.239.231 (
talk) 23:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- All encapsulated on Jordan Road. Besides, we're only talking about English language sources in a Chinese language dominated region. If this coverage exists already in English, most certainly more exists in Chinese. --
Oakshade (
talk) 22:47, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, the entire chapter is entitled "Jordan Road", but aside from the minimal coverage mentioned above, the remainder is vignettes about Yau ma Tei Typhoon Shelter, Yue Hwa Department Store, Kowloon Union Church and Manse and the Diocesan Girls School. Coverage of entities in Jordan Road doesn't make the road notable based on the above mentioned principle of
notability not being inherited.
Philg88 ♦
talk 21:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I count six pages (not small), pages 60 through 65. It's basically an entire chapter devoted to Jourdan Road. --
Oakshade (
talk) 19:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Two (very small) pages in fact while most of the first one is taken up by a map. And it's a travel guide to exploring Kowloon rather than an academic/historical source. Not enough weight there IMHO to carry it across the GNG threshold.
Philg88 ♦
talk 19:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- While multiple sources are "generally expected,"
WP:GNG does not and has never required more than one. It all depends, as GNG states, on the quality and depth of coverage. The
source found above is very in-depth that goes on multiple book pages and actually gives more than the usual "multiple" coverages on other subjects combined. --
Oakshade (
talk) 16:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Chinese Wikipedia's version of the article 佐敦道 contains two historical sources: ^ 《九龍街道命名考源》梁濤 著，第二十八頁，市政局出版，1993年 and ^ 《香港歷史文化小百科16－趣談九龍街道》 爾東 著，第141-142頁，明報出版社，2004年11月， ISBN 962-8871-46-3. (Note: User:Hisashiyarouin noted these above.) I added a translate template to the article to aid in evaluating the sources and the text. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 21:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC) Cantonese Wikipedia's version 佐敦道 is much shorter but links these two sources: "道路及鐵路 － 曾改名道路（二）九龍及新界". and "香港掌故 街道名稱的由來（六之三）". and this New York Times article [2] about the Dr. Jordan after whom the street was reported to have been renamed. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 21:48, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Even if the street was named after this doctor (which it wasn't, that honour goes to
John Newell Jordan), the NYT article says nothing about Jordan Road. As far as the Chinese coverage is concerned, the references cited above are a street guide and a pocket encyclopedia of Hong Kong culture, not academic texts. The same goes for the references in the Cantonese article - they are street guides to Hong Kong. These are sufficient for
verifiabilty purposes but not not provide sufficient weight to satisfy the
general notability guideline.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The disparity in description is exactly why I was asking others ("comment") to evaluate these potential sources. I'm the one who added the reference to John Newell Jordan and the Hong Kong University reference supporting this addition. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 15:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- WP:GNG does not require only "academic texts" as evidence of notability and travel guides are not excluded either. As long as the combined coverage is significant, it can come from travel guides, academic texts or anything else that's secondary to the topic and subject to editorial oversight.-- Oakshade ( talk) 17:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Even if the street was named after this doctor (which it wasn't, that honour goes to
John Newell Jordan), the NYT article says nothing about Jordan Road. As far as the Chinese coverage is concerned, the references cited above are a street guide and a pocket encyclopedia of Hong Kong culture, not academic texts. The same goes for the references in the Cantonese article - they are street guides to Hong Kong. These are sufficient for
verifiabilty purposes but not not provide sufficient weight to satisfy the
general notability guideline.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of streets and roads in Hong Kong. Not notable enough.-- 180.172.239.231 ( talk) 13:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep or, if the historical references I've added to the article and noted above are not deemed significant coverage, merge to Jordan, Hong Kong. The neighborhood article will provide more context and will benefit from the historical material. See WP:MERGE "Context: If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it." and WP:GEOLAND "Examples may include subdivisions, business parks, housing developments, informal regions of a state, unofficial neighborhoods, etc. – any of which could be considered notable on a case-by-case basis, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources." 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 15:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but
WP:GEOLAND doesn't apply to roads. The idea behind the suggested redirect outcome is that all the verifiable and sourced information on Jordan Road (of which there isn't much) can go in the appropriate entry in
List of streets and roads in Hong Kong with a "See also" mention in
Jordan, Hong Kong. Any ancillary or "tourism" type info belongs in Wikitravel or Wikivoyage, not here.
Philg88 ♦
talk 05:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the policy cites above are to support merging to the neighborhood article. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 14:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but
WP:GEOLAND doesn't apply to roads. The idea behind the suggested redirect outcome is that all the verifiable and sourced information on Jordan Road (of which there isn't much) can go in the appropriate entry in
List of streets and roads in Hong Kong with a "See also" mention in
Jordan, Hong Kong. Any ancillary or "tourism" type info belongs in Wikitravel or Wikivoyage, not here.
Philg88 ♦
talk 05:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:33, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Jordan Road, Hong Kong ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable street in Hong Kong. The article fails to provide sufficient sources or even details in the text, to support its notability. Delete as per Wikipedia:Notability and WP:RS. Note that existence does not prove notability. The road needs to be the a subject covered by the source not simply a location mentioned while discussing some ancillary topic. Rincewind42 ( talk) 08:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC) Rincewind42 ( talk) 08:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep per being the naming origin of the MTR Jordan Station and the surrounding (pseudo-)area of Jordan. Also three sources from zh:佐敦道. Agree though that the current state fails to address these. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hisashiyarouin ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 1 August 2014
- Having something named after you isn't the definition of notability used in Wikipedia. The source in the Chinese wiki only show that the road exists. One is simply a traffic ordinance listing Jordan Road among many others that mini-buses cannot drive on. While that is sufficient to verify the claim on the article it is not sufficient to establish notability. Rincewind42 ( talk) 16:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 15:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep and rename to
Jordan Road (Hong Kong) to fit disambiguation standards.
to List of streets and roads in Hong Kong for now. Namesakes have no significance. Just like Lancashire Road, a WP:USRD/RCS list could be created later. The road currently does not deserve its own article.The road is notable (after some research), just needs a lot of expansion.— CycloneIsaac ( Talk) 18:33, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment I can't speak to the other street nominations at this time, but Jordan Road is the subject of at least some significant coverage. See, e.g., Streets: Exploring Kowloon 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 18:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC) I added a brief history section to the article based on this ref. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 19:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep - Major street in one of the centers of Hong Kong. If it's notable enough for there to be a station, Jordan Station, and a pier, Jordan Road Ferry Pier, it's notable enough for WP. Significant coverage easily found too [1] (also found by the anon). -- Oakshade ( talk) 01:32, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your using "named after" to mean "a dedication made to an important place of person." In that sense, Jordan Road doesn't really have a station and a pier named after it. The station is located on Jordan Road and the Pier was too until reclamation work moved it. Jordon Road is simply the address of these places and nothing more. Rincewind42 ( talk) 03:04, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep. A major street in a major city, and, as noted by 24.151.10.165, substantive coverage exists. -- Arxiloxos ( talk) 05:10, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Note that Wikipedia is not a directory and Wikipedia is not travelguide. Being a major street in a major city is not the criteria for inclusion under notability. The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability. Also bear in mind WP:LOTSOFSOURCES. It is not suffient to say srouces exit within this debate. You must point to the source as not all sources are reliable or sufficient. Rincewind42 ( talk) 16:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Redirect (Switched from Keep after further research) to
List of streets and roads in Hong Kong.
Per WP:ROADOUTCOMES it is a major road with the cultural and historical context necessary to establish notability.Per WP:ROADOUTCOMES it is a major road but lacks the coverage in reliable sources necessary to establish notability. The pier and the station are both certainly both notable, but notability is not inherited. I can only find a single source that mentions the road in depth, which is insufficient for notability purposes Philg88 ♦ talk 08:26, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- While multiple sources are "generally expected,"
WP:GNG does not and has never required more than one. It all depends, as GNG states, on the quality and depth of coverage. The
source found above is very in-depth that goes on multiple book pages and actually gives more than the usual "multiple" coverages on other subjects combined. --
Oakshade (
talk) 16:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Two (very small) pages in fact while most of the first one is taken up by a map. And it's a travel guide to exploring Kowloon rather than an academic/historical source. Not enough weight there IMHO to carry it across the GNG threshold.
Philg88 ♦
talk 19:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I count six pages (not small), pages 60 through 65. It's basically an entire chapter devoted to Jourdan Road. --
Oakshade (
talk) 19:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, the entire chapter is entitled "Jordan Road", but aside from the minimal coverage mentioned above, the remainder is vignettes about Yau ma Tei Typhoon Shelter, Yue Hwa Department Store, Kowloon Union Church and Manse and the Diocesan Girls School. Coverage of entities in Jordan Road doesn't make the road notable based on the above mentioned principle of
notability not being inherited.
Philg88 ♦
talk 21:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- All encapsulated on Jordan Road. Besides, we're only talking about English language sources in a Chinese language dominated region. If this coverage exists already in English, most certainly more exists in Chinese. --
Oakshade (
talk) 22:47, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Really? I can't find anything through a
google book search.--
180.172.239.231 (
talk) 23:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
Oakshade: More sources do not exist in Chinese because that's something I always check WRT China/Hong Kong articles. There are passing mentions of bus routes and buildings in the street but nothing more substantive.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- I frequently find sources in English that others miss, but not being a Chinese reader, I can't confirm that say any of these might be appropriate sources. While I trust you've made some effort to look, I just don't see this as the "proof" end-all on sources existing in Chinese or not.-- Oakshade ( talk) 19:58, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- @
Oakshade: More sources do not exist in Chinese because that's something I always check WRT China/Hong Kong articles. There are passing mentions of bus routes and buildings in the street but nothing more substantive.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Really? I can't find anything through a
google book search.--
180.172.239.231 (
talk) 23:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- All encapsulated on Jordan Road. Besides, we're only talking about English language sources in a Chinese language dominated region. If this coverage exists already in English, most certainly more exists in Chinese. --
Oakshade (
talk) 22:47, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sure, the entire chapter is entitled "Jordan Road", but aside from the minimal coverage mentioned above, the remainder is vignettes about Yau ma Tei Typhoon Shelter, Yue Hwa Department Store, Kowloon Union Church and Manse and the Diocesan Girls School. Coverage of entities in Jordan Road doesn't make the road notable based on the above mentioned principle of
notability not being inherited.
Philg88 ♦
talk 21:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- I count six pages (not small), pages 60 through 65. It's basically an entire chapter devoted to Jourdan Road. --
Oakshade (
talk) 19:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Two (very small) pages in fact while most of the first one is taken up by a map. And it's a travel guide to exploring Kowloon rather than an academic/historical source. Not enough weight there IMHO to carry it across the GNG threshold.
Philg88 ♦
talk 19:16, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- While multiple sources are "generally expected,"
WP:GNG does not and has never required more than one. It all depends, as GNG states, on the quality and depth of coverage. The
source found above is very in-depth that goes on multiple book pages and actually gives more than the usual "multiple" coverages on other subjects combined. --
Oakshade (
talk) 16:06, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Comment Chinese Wikipedia's version of the article 佐敦道 contains two historical sources: ^ 《九龍街道命名考源》梁濤 著，第二十八頁，市政局出版，1993年 and ^ 《香港歷史文化小百科16－趣談九龍街道》 爾東 著，第141-142頁，明報出版社，2004年11月， ISBN 962-8871-46-3. (Note: User:Hisashiyarouin noted these above.) I added a translate template to the article to aid in evaluating the sources and the text. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 21:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC) Cantonese Wikipedia's version 佐敦道 is much shorter but links these two sources: "道路及鐵路 － 曾改名道路（二）九龍及新界". and "香港掌故 街道名稱的由來（六之三）". and this New York Times article [2] about the Dr. Jordan after whom the street was reported to have been renamed. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 21:48, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
- Even if the street was named after this doctor (which it wasn't, that honour goes to
John Newell Jordan), the NYT article says nothing about Jordan Road. As far as the Chinese coverage is concerned, the references cited above are a street guide and a pocket encyclopedia of Hong Kong culture, not academic texts. The same goes for the references in the Cantonese article - they are street guides to Hong Kong. These are sufficient for
verifiabilty purposes but not not provide sufficient weight to satisfy the
general notability guideline.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- The disparity in description is exactly why I was asking others ("comment") to evaluate these potential sources. I'm the one who added the reference to John Newell Jordan and the Hong Kong University reference supporting this addition. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 15:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- WP:GNG does not require only "academic texts" as evidence of notability and travel guides are not excluded either. As long as the combined coverage is significant, it can come from travel guides, academic texts or anything else that's secondary to the topic and subject to editorial oversight.-- Oakshade ( talk) 17:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Even if the street was named after this doctor (which it wasn't, that honour goes to
John Newell Jordan), the NYT article says nothing about Jordan Road. As far as the Chinese coverage is concerned, the references cited above are a street guide and a pocket encyclopedia of Hong Kong culture, not academic texts. The same goes for the references in the Cantonese article - they are street guides to Hong Kong. These are sufficient for
verifiabilty purposes but not not provide sufficient weight to satisfy the
general notability guideline.
Philg88 ♦
talk 07:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Redirect to List of streets and roads in Hong Kong. Not notable enough.-- 180.172.239.231 ( talk) 13:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
- Keep or, if the historical references I've added to the article and noted above are not deemed significant coverage, merge to Jordan, Hong Kong. The neighborhood article will provide more context and will benefit from the historical material. See WP:MERGE "Context: If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it." and WP:GEOLAND "Examples may include subdivisions, business parks, housing developments, informal regions of a state, unofficial neighborhoods, etc. – any of which could be considered notable on a case-by-case basis, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources." 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 15:05, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but
WP:GEOLAND doesn't apply to roads. The idea behind the suggested redirect outcome is that all the verifiable and sourced information on Jordan Road (of which there isn't much) can go in the appropriate entry in
List of streets and roads in Hong Kong with a "See also" mention in
Jordan, Hong Kong. Any ancillary or "tourism" type info belongs in Wikitravel or Wikivoyage, not here.
Philg88 ♦
talk 05:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the policy cites above are to support merging to the neighborhood article. 24.151.10.165 ( talk) 14:54, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but
WP:GEOLAND doesn't apply to roads. The idea behind the suggested redirect outcome is that all the verifiable and sourced information on Jordan Road (of which there isn't much) can go in the appropriate entry in
List of streets and roads in Hong Kong with a "See also" mention in
Jordan, Hong Kong. Any ancillary or "tourism" type info belongs in Wikitravel or Wikivoyage, not here.
Philg88 ♦
talk 05:40, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.