The result of the debate was delete. bainer ( talk) 12:18, 17 December 2005 (UTC) reply
Closer's notes
For the record, several user's comments/votes were disregarded:
Ciaranmcgonagle (
talk •
contribs) (edits almost exclusively to pages related to this one)
Fieldmarshalamin (
talk •
contribs) (edits only to this page)
Nzamcdza (
talk •
contribs) (given low weight, very new user)
Furthermore, all IP comments/votes were disregarded.
This article was originally requested at Wikipedia:AFC. It was created by User:Johnfullerton, and looks like WP:Vanity. I originally flagged it for speedy-bio but the creator objected so I am listing here. The article seems to make no claim to notability for its subject, outside his community. The thesis statement is John Fullerton (born January 18, 1957) was a past-pupil of St. Columb's College in Derry. Google gives a lot of hits for someone else of the same name. I am sure that Mr. Fullerton is a local community leader, but I don't think his autobiography is encyclopedic. - orion eight ( talk) 00:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC) reply
The previous comment is mine by the way. Also, I am not John Fullerton himself. I merely adopted the screenname to create the article. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Johnfullerton ( talk • contribs)
I would have to agree that John Fullerton is a notable character. I’m from Belfast, Northern Ireland but living in Derry, but I had heard about Fullerton before moving here. His often-hilarious exploits at Derry City FC get a brief mention in Norman Giller’s “Football and All That: An Irreverent History”, where he famously scored from near the half-way line in a league football game. This is quite an achievement in football and Giller describes him as “an influential and witty personality to local football at a time when Northern Ireland needed something to cheer about”. The distance he scored the free-kick from was the second furthest distance ever scored from in the UK and Ireland. He is also mentioned in “From Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the Irish Troubles” by Niall O'Dochartaigh for his breakthrough in cross-community negotiations in Northern Ireland. “an influential and witty personality for local football at a time when Northern Ireland needed something to cheer about”. The article includes all the relevant information. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 84.64.215.208 ( talk • contribs)
I think another reason why this article ought to be kept is that, in a school noted for the brilliance of its past pupils, john fullerton is a man who has achieved great status in his field. He is important to people in Derry and surrounding areas. It would be a disgrace if he is once again shunned from the limelight that he so richly deserves. I believe some of the best chapters on Fullerton have yet to be written!
Biographies on the following people may be included in Wikipedia. This list is not all-inclusive. There are numerous biographies on Wikipedia on people who do not fall under any of these categories, but there is no intention to delete them all.
Political figures holding international, national or statewide/provincewide office or members of a national, state or provincial legislature. Major local political figures who receive significant press coverage Widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers Sportspeople who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in an individual professional sport, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports, including college sports in the United States. Articles about first team squad members who have not made a first team appearance may also be appropriate, but only if the individual is at a club of sufficient stature that most members of its squad already have articles. Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions.
Notability can be determined by: Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following An independent biography Name recognition Commercial endorsements Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more Recording musicians who have sold more than 5,000 albums, CDs, or similar recordings (see WikiProject Music's Notability and Music Guidelines) Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is recognized as exceptional and likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events
I have included in bold all the various criteria which John Fulerton meets and considering you only have to meet one of these criteria to be included there can be no doubt that he is notable and his page should be kept. Nzamcdza 16:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC) reply
he has also been briefly mentioned in an article by Queens University Professor Kieran McEvoy ("Restorative Justice and the Critique of Informalism in Northern Ireland " (with Harry Mika) (2002) 43 British Journal of Criminology 534 ) as one of the people who have made strides in promoting cross community relations. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Ciaranmcgonagle ( talk • contribs)
Fullerton is a legend and deserves to be on this site. I remember watching him as a young sweet heart of the local game, not only did he have great ability with his feet he was also a major heart throb. I say keep this hunk of a man on! GRRR! —the preceding unsigned comment is by 81.156.245.112 ( talk • contribs)
I think this subject is totally relevant to this page. John Fullerton was footballs original heart throb. Had he been about nowadays he would be as big as Beckham,he certainly takes a better set piece. A sportsman, a humanitarian and a prince and I say keep him. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Fieldmarshalamin ( talk • contribs)
KEEP: I detect a lot of jealousy amongst posters on this discussion of this great man. Don't hate him because he is better than you. Fullerton would not hate you for feeling this way, he is humble in his greatness and I think it's time that you people take a leaf from John's book and honour this beautiful tribute. This is a man who embodied class, touch and vision on and off the football field, it is truly a disgrace that his name be soiled in this way. hame on the lot of you! KEEP this homage to John Fullerton. —the preceding
unsigned comment is by
Fieldmarshalamin (
talk •
contribs)
here is a link to a match report involving a recent game of fullertons, making an appearance for an inishowen team -
http://www.inishtimes.com/sport3.htm —the preceding
unsigned comment is by
82.19.66.27 (
talk •
contribs)
Comment I am not John Fullerton so I cannot see how the accusation of vanity against the article can stand. Anyhow, I apologise for the mess this has become. These trolls are not sockpuppets of mine and have nothing to do with me. I am as much frustrated by their interference as other serious contributors to this site, as they are damaging the subject's (now slight) chance to remain credible. Before their interference there was a consensus for possibly keeping the article. However, since, this has changed and I feel their interuption has put some contributors on a side against the article. Nevertheless, serious sources relating to Fullerton's notability have been mentioned. Are these enough to ensure the page is preserved?-- Johnfullerton 00:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC) reply
72-73 Fullerton and the St. Columb’s College affair is talked about in enough detail to make it notable I feel.)
She also pointed me to O’Dochartaigh’s book and some newspaper and sport cuttings from the early 1980s and late 1970s. These mention his record goal even though he played only 4 times for the Derry City full-team and mentions the reasons for this return to St. Columb’s. The St. Columb’s College affair is also documented in later cuttings. More detailed articles should be available in the Derry Journal offices although I don’t currently have the time to visit there.
I have borrowed Walker’s book as I feel it is most useful. -- Johnfullerton 15:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC) reply
He is ranked third here, however. This ranking includes the worldwide record, though, and the chap in second place is Peruvian. This backs up the claim about his professional footballing I feel. Definitly noteworthy. -- 88.107.17.245 16:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC) reply
Keep - I refer to the comment that the academic journal was obscure. I would argue that in the realm of northern irish criminology it is well known and is usually a set text on any criminolgical university syllabus. Outside of this it may be called obscure however, if this is not a forum for knowledge and historical insight which is not well known or has thusfar been overlooked in the public domain, then i fail to see the purpose of this site! I would also hope you disregard the views of the so called sock puppets, both for and against, and give regard to the original authors. (ciaranmcgonagle)
As regards the Hume speech, it was made at the past pupils reunion dinner in October of this year. Unfortunatly, Hume's speeches are referenced less and less now due to his illness.
Another thing you may want to consider is Irish president McAleese's speech, referenced at http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=5&speech=17&lang=eng which talks about the importance of the educators at st columbs college. - —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 ( talk · contribs)
The speech - so many giants in so many very different spheres, some names well known inside their professional worlds, others household names like Phil Coulter, Bishop Edward Daly - I believe this relates to fullerton and people of that ilk. I think these sites have a duty to spread the word of lessor know people such as fullerton. I think if the site is allowed up it would create a hub or a basis for further works into fullerton and the body of work will expand from there. Surely if everything on this site could be referenced on google there would be no need for it?? This is the whole point of this community and people such as fullerton should be allowed, people who are unfashionable like this will never get the acclaim that they deserve in the normal arenas. - —the preceding unsigned comment is by Ciaranmcgonagle ( talk · contribs)
It isnt a memorial - he is still alive. Furthermore, Fullerton is very important to the people of Derry. Are you saying their views arent important? - —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 ( talk · contribs)
The edits of 24.203.199.202 ( talk · contribs) might be instructive. This person is running around adding information about someone named Herbert Becker, and adding to the request for article creation an image uploaded by User:Johnfullerton which he claims is a "friend" of John Fullerton, but whose name is not Herbert Becker. Also note that Fullerton is not listed as being a member of the Past Pupils' Association at http://www.stcolumbs.com/html/extra/extraset.html, let alone their Alumnus Illustrissimus. Also Googling for '"John Fullerton" Derry football' or '"John Fullerton" Londonderry football' brings up no hits for the person in the article. Zoe ( 216.234.130.130 21:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)) reply
Well said Mr Bunyip. My only issue with this article is the failure to credit "Mr.F" (as my class called him) for blazing new sporting trails by bringing 'Strider' trainers to the forefront of athletic pursuits! Oh and he made my class run 2 laps of the Industrial estate for making our German Teacher cry, too. "Amazing times". D.Bronco M.A. B.A.(Hons) —the preceding unsigned comment is by 212.54.164.36 ( talk • contribs)
Has everyone just ignored the refernces posted by Johnfullerton ???
First thing i noticed when reading this post, is that most of the "Delete" comments are being made by people living outside Ireland, north and south. Asking for proof because they have never heard of JF, well just going to make a few points, If you are not from the surrounding area then you are not going to have heard of them man, most of his work was done before the internet came about and i would wager that all of your so called refrences came from the internet, how many people went down to the derry journal office to get research, how many went to inish times for information. I am cuently studying in Derry and had to write a report on the history of derry's sport. Firstly i must thank wikipedia for providing information helping me in my report. Although the info was hard to come by i stumbled upon the report about john fullerton which led me to here where this debate is happening. Is it taking up so much space on your webpage that it should be deleted? If you were to ask the people of derry who they would rather have represented by their city John F or Nadine Coyle (whom you have on your site) i would say most of them would say john. As for the facts i don't know much about them but i'm guesing he is on this more becasue of his work for the funding rather than his footballing skills. To anyone not from Derry you will never understand what it was like during the troubles and for John and his co-workers to pull that off was an amazing feat from somone on "the city side." As for the football I couldn't give a damm I'm a GAA man to the end and i find it amazing that no one has mentioned that John played Gaa for donegal team. - unsigned post by 212.219.92.232 ( talk · contribs)
Keep Mr. Fullerton has contributed much to local sport here in Derry and it is only right that this page should be kept as a tribute. ( Thebdogg 17:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)) reply
"Wonderful. We're still waiting for evidence" what is it with you people and your need for evidence, there has been evidence listed *free kick record *money obtained for school *Derry journal archive in the derry journal office (the journal website is no good for archived evidence the page dosn't go back far enough proof of this is i was searching the journal webpage for a report of the Derry barcelona match and it didn't have anything on it, so i suppose this never happened either??) as for when they happened i would say when fullerton was around 17-19 (if he was still in school playing football) now you gonna tell me that internet was about then?
The result of the debate was delete. bainer ( talk) 12:18, 17 December 2005 (UTC) reply
Closer's notes
For the record, several user's comments/votes were disregarded:
Ciaranmcgonagle (
talk •
contribs) (edits almost exclusively to pages related to this one)
Fieldmarshalamin (
talk •
contribs) (edits only to this page)
Nzamcdza (
talk •
contribs) (given low weight, very new user)
Furthermore, all IP comments/votes were disregarded.
This article was originally requested at Wikipedia:AFC. It was created by User:Johnfullerton, and looks like WP:Vanity. I originally flagged it for speedy-bio but the creator objected so I am listing here. The article seems to make no claim to notability for its subject, outside his community. The thesis statement is John Fullerton (born January 18, 1957) was a past-pupil of St. Columb's College in Derry. Google gives a lot of hits for someone else of the same name. I am sure that Mr. Fullerton is a local community leader, but I don't think his autobiography is encyclopedic. - orion eight ( talk) 00:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC) reply
The previous comment is mine by the way. Also, I am not John Fullerton himself. I merely adopted the screenname to create the article. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Johnfullerton ( talk • contribs)
I would have to agree that John Fullerton is a notable character. I’m from Belfast, Northern Ireland but living in Derry, but I had heard about Fullerton before moving here. His often-hilarious exploits at Derry City FC get a brief mention in Norman Giller’s “Football and All That: An Irreverent History”, where he famously scored from near the half-way line in a league football game. This is quite an achievement in football and Giller describes him as “an influential and witty personality to local football at a time when Northern Ireland needed something to cheer about”. The distance he scored the free-kick from was the second furthest distance ever scored from in the UK and Ireland. He is also mentioned in “From Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the Irish Troubles” by Niall O'Dochartaigh for his breakthrough in cross-community negotiations in Northern Ireland. “an influential and witty personality for local football at a time when Northern Ireland needed something to cheer about”. The article includes all the relevant information. —the preceding unsigned comment is by 84.64.215.208 ( talk • contribs)
I think another reason why this article ought to be kept is that, in a school noted for the brilliance of its past pupils, john fullerton is a man who has achieved great status in his field. He is important to people in Derry and surrounding areas. It would be a disgrace if he is once again shunned from the limelight that he so richly deserves. I believe some of the best chapters on Fullerton have yet to be written!
Biographies on the following people may be included in Wikipedia. This list is not all-inclusive. There are numerous biographies on Wikipedia on people who do not fall under any of these categories, but there is no intention to delete them all.
Political figures holding international, national or statewide/provincewide office or members of a national, state or provincial legislature. Major local political figures who receive significant press coverage Widely recognized entertainment personalities and opinion makers Sportspeople who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in an individual professional sport, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports, including college sports in the United States. Articles about first team squad members who have not made a first team appearance may also be appropriate, but only if the individual is at a club of sufficient stature that most members of its squad already have articles. Notable actors and television personalities who have appeared in well-known films or television productions.
Notability can be determined by: Multiple features in popular culture publications such as Vogue, GQ, Elle, FHM or national newspapers A large fan base, fan listing or "cult" following An independent biography Name recognition Commercial endorsements Published authors, editors, and photographers who have written books with an audience of 5,000 or more or in periodicals with a circulation of 5,000 or more Recording musicians who have sold more than 5,000 albums, CDs, or similar recordings (see WikiProject Music's Notability and Music Guidelines) Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is recognized as exceptional and likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field Persons achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events
I have included in bold all the various criteria which John Fulerton meets and considering you only have to meet one of these criteria to be included there can be no doubt that he is notable and his page should be kept. Nzamcdza 16:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC) reply
he has also been briefly mentioned in an article by Queens University Professor Kieran McEvoy ("Restorative Justice and the Critique of Informalism in Northern Ireland " (with Harry Mika) (2002) 43 British Journal of Criminology 534 ) as one of the people who have made strides in promoting cross community relations. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Ciaranmcgonagle ( talk • contribs)
Fullerton is a legend and deserves to be on this site. I remember watching him as a young sweet heart of the local game, not only did he have great ability with his feet he was also a major heart throb. I say keep this hunk of a man on! GRRR! —the preceding unsigned comment is by 81.156.245.112 ( talk • contribs)
I think this subject is totally relevant to this page. John Fullerton was footballs original heart throb. Had he been about nowadays he would be as big as Beckham,he certainly takes a better set piece. A sportsman, a humanitarian and a prince and I say keep him. —the preceding unsigned comment is by Fieldmarshalamin ( talk • contribs)
KEEP: I detect a lot of jealousy amongst posters on this discussion of this great man. Don't hate him because he is better than you. Fullerton would not hate you for feeling this way, he is humble in his greatness and I think it's time that you people take a leaf from John's book and honour this beautiful tribute. This is a man who embodied class, touch and vision on and off the football field, it is truly a disgrace that his name be soiled in this way. hame on the lot of you! KEEP this homage to John Fullerton. —the preceding
unsigned comment is by
Fieldmarshalamin (
talk •
contribs)
here is a link to a match report involving a recent game of fullertons, making an appearance for an inishowen team -
http://www.inishtimes.com/sport3.htm —the preceding
unsigned comment is by
82.19.66.27 (
talk •
contribs)
Comment I am not John Fullerton so I cannot see how the accusation of vanity against the article can stand. Anyhow, I apologise for the mess this has become. These trolls are not sockpuppets of mine and have nothing to do with me. I am as much frustrated by their interference as other serious contributors to this site, as they are damaging the subject's (now slight) chance to remain credible. Before their interference there was a consensus for possibly keeping the article. However, since, this has changed and I feel their interuption has put some contributors on a side against the article. Nevertheless, serious sources relating to Fullerton's notability have been mentioned. Are these enough to ensure the page is preserved?-- Johnfullerton 00:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC) reply
72-73 Fullerton and the St. Columb’s College affair is talked about in enough detail to make it notable I feel.)
She also pointed me to O’Dochartaigh’s book and some newspaper and sport cuttings from the early 1980s and late 1970s. These mention his record goal even though he played only 4 times for the Derry City full-team and mentions the reasons for this return to St. Columb’s. The St. Columb’s College affair is also documented in later cuttings. More detailed articles should be available in the Derry Journal offices although I don’t currently have the time to visit there.
I have borrowed Walker’s book as I feel it is most useful. -- Johnfullerton 15:23, 12 December 2005 (UTC) reply
He is ranked third here, however. This ranking includes the worldwide record, though, and the chap in second place is Peruvian. This backs up the claim about his professional footballing I feel. Definitly noteworthy. -- 88.107.17.245 16:14, 12 December 2005 (UTC) reply
Keep - I refer to the comment that the academic journal was obscure. I would argue that in the realm of northern irish criminology it is well known and is usually a set text on any criminolgical university syllabus. Outside of this it may be called obscure however, if this is not a forum for knowledge and historical insight which is not well known or has thusfar been overlooked in the public domain, then i fail to see the purpose of this site! I would also hope you disregard the views of the so called sock puppets, both for and against, and give regard to the original authors. (ciaranmcgonagle)
As regards the Hume speech, it was made at the past pupils reunion dinner in October of this year. Unfortunatly, Hume's speeches are referenced less and less now due to his illness.
Another thing you may want to consider is Irish president McAleese's speech, referenced at http://www.president.ie/index.php?section=5&speech=17&lang=eng which talks about the importance of the educators at st columbs college. - —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 ( talk · contribs)
The speech - so many giants in so many very different spheres, some names well known inside their professional worlds, others household names like Phil Coulter, Bishop Edward Daly - I believe this relates to fullerton and people of that ilk. I think these sites have a duty to spread the word of lessor know people such as fullerton. I think if the site is allowed up it would create a hub or a basis for further works into fullerton and the body of work will expand from there. Surely if everything on this site could be referenced on google there would be no need for it?? This is the whole point of this community and people such as fullerton should be allowed, people who are unfashionable like this will never get the acclaim that they deserve in the normal arenas. - —the preceding unsigned comment is by Ciaranmcgonagle ( talk · contribs)
It isnt a memorial - he is still alive. Furthermore, Fullerton is very important to the people of Derry. Are you saying their views arent important? - —the preceding unsigned comment is by 82.19.66.27 ( talk · contribs)
The edits of 24.203.199.202 ( talk · contribs) might be instructive. This person is running around adding information about someone named Herbert Becker, and adding to the request for article creation an image uploaded by User:Johnfullerton which he claims is a "friend" of John Fullerton, but whose name is not Herbert Becker. Also note that Fullerton is not listed as being a member of the Past Pupils' Association at http://www.stcolumbs.com/html/extra/extraset.html, let alone their Alumnus Illustrissimus. Also Googling for '"John Fullerton" Derry football' or '"John Fullerton" Londonderry football' brings up no hits for the person in the article. Zoe ( 216.234.130.130 21:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)) reply
Well said Mr Bunyip. My only issue with this article is the failure to credit "Mr.F" (as my class called him) for blazing new sporting trails by bringing 'Strider' trainers to the forefront of athletic pursuits! Oh and he made my class run 2 laps of the Industrial estate for making our German Teacher cry, too. "Amazing times". D.Bronco M.A. B.A.(Hons) —the preceding unsigned comment is by 212.54.164.36 ( talk • contribs)
Has everyone just ignored the refernces posted by Johnfullerton ???
First thing i noticed when reading this post, is that most of the "Delete" comments are being made by people living outside Ireland, north and south. Asking for proof because they have never heard of JF, well just going to make a few points, If you are not from the surrounding area then you are not going to have heard of them man, most of his work was done before the internet came about and i would wager that all of your so called refrences came from the internet, how many people went down to the derry journal office to get research, how many went to inish times for information. I am cuently studying in Derry and had to write a report on the history of derry's sport. Firstly i must thank wikipedia for providing information helping me in my report. Although the info was hard to come by i stumbled upon the report about john fullerton which led me to here where this debate is happening. Is it taking up so much space on your webpage that it should be deleted? If you were to ask the people of derry who they would rather have represented by their city John F or Nadine Coyle (whom you have on your site) i would say most of them would say john. As for the facts i don't know much about them but i'm guesing he is on this more becasue of his work for the funding rather than his footballing skills. To anyone not from Derry you will never understand what it was like during the troubles and for John and his co-workers to pull that off was an amazing feat from somone on "the city side." As for the football I couldn't give a damm I'm a GAA man to the end and i find it amazing that no one has mentioned that John played Gaa for donegal team. - unsigned post by 212.219.92.232 ( talk · contribs)
Keep Mr. Fullerton has contributed much to local sport here in Derry and it is only right that this page should be kept as a tribute. ( Thebdogg 17:01, 15 December 2005 (UTC)) reply
"Wonderful. We're still waiting for evidence" what is it with you people and your need for evidence, there has been evidence listed *free kick record *money obtained for school *Derry journal archive in the derry journal office (the journal website is no good for archived evidence the page dosn't go back far enough proof of this is i was searching the journal webpage for a report of the Derry barcelona match and it didn't have anything on it, so i suppose this never happened either??) as for when they happened i would say when fullerton was around 17-19 (if he was still in school playing football) now you gonna tell me that internet was about then?