The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. It appears that there is consensus
WP:SOLDIER and
WP:NPROF should not apply here. After that, discussion falls to
WP:GNG, and no editor advances an argument that he passes there. I am happy to userfy this for someone if they'd like to keep working on finding sources to re-create in the future. GoPhightins!10:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Copies of citations for his DSC, SS, and DSMs can be found here:
https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/6116. None of them are especially specific, but it does lead me to think there might be more out there regarding his career with the 3/378th Infantry or 95th Division. One of the DSM citations is from his time commandant of the National War College, but I suspect that was more of a retirement/end of assignment decoration.
Intothatdarkness15:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete I'm not seeing SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to satisfy
WP:GNG. I have gone through the [
[1]] and don't see him mentioned anywhere. The lack of coverage for a 3 star General is surprising, but he seems to have had a series of low-key assignments and didn't play any significant role in the Korean War, Vietnam War or Cold War.
Mztourist (
talk)
04:53, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete I didn't see anything significant, either. The obituary just mimics the assignment list already in the article, and the award citations are likewise less than informative (which is admittedly kind of unusual for a DSC).
Intothatdarkness14:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I did some general digging, and there isn't anything about him in the 95th Infantry Division or 3/378th Inf. His DSC came late in the war, after the Metz campaign which is where most coverage of the 95th Division focuses. I'm just not finding enough, so the weak comes off. It is amazing he managed to fly under the radar as well as he seems to have done.
Intothatdarkness18:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. Sorry, but I really do fail to see how a lieutenant-general who has commanded both a division and a corps and has served as commandant of the
National War College cannot be notable, however much coverage he may have received. This is just common sense. Sometimes you just have to
WP:IAR and use it. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
11:13, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
If we had any reliable sources that confirmed any of those things then perhaps the threshold would be met, but we don't. Notability is based on significant coverage in reliable sources, if the person doesn't have that then, 3 star general or not, they're not notable.
Mztourist (
talk)
14:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Question Would being the commandant of the National War College merit an
WP:NPROF pass? Also I have to admit the lack of coverage for this guy is somewhat bizarre, I was able to find a mention in the NYT database in a UPI writeup on generals receiving new assignments but that was it. Best,
GPL93 (
talk)
18:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
delete strangely no mention of him
here. Even if he were,
WP:NPROF#6 would not apply since the college is part of the
National Defense University which by itself may not pass the bar of "a major academic institution or major academic society." I think this rather falls under "Lesser administrative posts (provost, dean, department chair, etc.) are generally not sufficient to qualify under Criterion 6 alone" and to me his position looks more like head of a department. --
hroest03:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Rather Strong Keep -- Several sources point to him being the commandant of the National War College. I think most lieutenant generals are rather notable as I think they usually have high positions of responsible at this point in rank promotion.
Durindaljb (
talk)
23:48, 7 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus is divided and the article subject should probably have better sourcing available somewhere given his rank and commands.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --
Patar knight - chat/contributions07:07, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep/Comment Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Lieutenant Generals are considered flag/general officers? If so, they are generally considered notable according to
WP:OUTCOMES. If Lieutenant Generals are considered field grade officers though, they need to show notability independent of their military rank.
Bibliopole5795 (
talk)
11:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment There are four sources listed for the article, but one of them doesn't even apply to the subject (just another officer with the same name). Two of the others are namechecks (one is a blog and the other the notice of his promotion and assignment to command the National War College), and the third is the Arlington information. The obituary noted above is likely where arlingtoncemetery.net got its information, and the lists are almost identical. He seems to have avoided both Korea and Vietnam and had a more or less unremarked (and possibly unremarkable) career.
Intothatdarkness18:46, 15 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. It appears that there is consensus
WP:SOLDIER and
WP:NPROF should not apply here. After that, discussion falls to
WP:GNG, and no editor advances an argument that he passes there. I am happy to userfy this for someone if they'd like to keep working on finding sources to re-create in the future. GoPhightins!10:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment Copies of citations for his DSC, SS, and DSMs can be found here:
https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/6116. None of them are especially specific, but it does lead me to think there might be more out there regarding his career with the 3/378th Infantry or 95th Division. One of the DSM citations is from his time commandant of the National War College, but I suspect that was more of a retirement/end of assignment decoration.
Intothatdarkness15:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Delete I'm not seeing SIGCOV in multiple RS necessary to satisfy
WP:GNG. I have gone through the [
[1]] and don't see him mentioned anywhere. The lack of coverage for a 3 star General is surprising, but he seems to have had a series of low-key assignments and didn't play any significant role in the Korean War, Vietnam War or Cold War.
Mztourist (
talk)
04:53, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Weak Delete I didn't see anything significant, either. The obituary just mimics the assignment list already in the article, and the award citations are likewise less than informative (which is admittedly kind of unusual for a DSC).
Intothatdarkness14:42, 2 March 2021 (UTC)reply
I did some general digging, and there isn't anything about him in the 95th Infantry Division or 3/378th Inf. His DSC came late in the war, after the Metz campaign which is where most coverage of the 95th Division focuses. I'm just not finding enough, so the weak comes off. It is amazing he managed to fly under the radar as well as he seems to have done.
Intothatdarkness18:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep. Sorry, but I really do fail to see how a lieutenant-general who has commanded both a division and a corps and has served as commandant of the
National War College cannot be notable, however much coverage he may have received. This is just common sense. Sometimes you just have to
WP:IAR and use it. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
11:13, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
If we had any reliable sources that confirmed any of those things then perhaps the threshold would be met, but we don't. Notability is based on significant coverage in reliable sources, if the person doesn't have that then, 3 star general or not, they're not notable.
Mztourist (
talk)
14:53, 4 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Question Would being the commandant of the National War College merit an
WP:NPROF pass? Also I have to admit the lack of coverage for this guy is somewhat bizarre, I was able to find a mention in the NYT database in a UPI writeup on generals receiving new assignments but that was it. Best,
GPL93 (
talk)
18:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)reply
delete strangely no mention of him
here. Even if he were,
WP:NPROF#6 would not apply since the college is part of the
National Defense University which by itself may not pass the bar of "a major academic institution or major academic society." I think this rather falls under "Lesser administrative posts (provost, dean, department chair, etc.) are generally not sufficient to qualify under Criterion 6 alone" and to me his position looks more like head of a department. --
hroest03:53, 7 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Rather Strong Keep -- Several sources point to him being the commandant of the National War College. I think most lieutenant generals are rather notable as I think they usually have high positions of responsible at this point in rank promotion.
Durindaljb (
talk)
23:48, 7 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Consensus is divided and the article subject should probably have better sourcing available somewhere given his rank and commands.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, --
Patar knight - chat/contributions07:07, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Keep/Comment Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Lieutenant Generals are considered flag/general officers? If so, they are generally considered notable according to
WP:OUTCOMES. If Lieutenant Generals are considered field grade officers though, they need to show notability independent of their military rank.
Bibliopole5795 (
talk)
11:30, 9 March 2021 (UTC)reply
Comment There are four sources listed for the article, but one of them doesn't even apply to the subject (just another officer with the same name). Two of the others are namechecks (one is a blog and the other the notice of his promotion and assignment to command the National War College), and the third is the Arlington information. The obituary noted above is likely where arlingtoncemetery.net got its information, and the lists are almost identical. He seems to have avoided both Korea and Vietnam and had a more or less unremarked (and possibly unremarkable) career.
Intothatdarkness18:46, 15 March 2021 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
talk page or in a
deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.