- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Coolperson177 ( talk) 19:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
John Campion
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- John Campion ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Doesn't meet WP:BIO or WP:GNG. Boleyn ( talk) 18:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 18:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 18:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:OFFICEHOLDER. The article is short and needs updating but is about a holder of a notable office who is now in his second term. This is Paul ( talk) 18:26, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- PCCs (including this one) have received significant press coverage, albeit often on a local level. A police constituency can cover a population of several hundred thousand, or even into the millions. Indeed, the population of the West Mercia area is around 1.19 million. Consequently it is a notable post, and the holder of it is likely to attract ongoing media attention, thus making them notable. Campion's move to make the post a police and fire commissioner also adds weight to this article's notability. This is not a post akin to the leader of a local council. This is Paul ( talk) 19:26, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete looking at WP:POLITICIAN he doesn't have significant coverage, hasn't held anything other than local office, and is otherwise unremarkable and non-notable. Certainly no PCC in England and Wales is automatically notable by merit of being the officeholder. -- 10mmsocket ( talk) 21:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think the consensus at the time the office was created was for PCCs to be notable in the same way we create articles for every elected MP, MSP, MS and so on (many of who have also previously only held local office, if any at all). We could have this discussion about any number of these PCCs, so perhaps what is needed is a wider debate about whether holders of the office should automatically qualify for articles, or whether the information could be incorporated into individual articles about the position (for example, there is an article for
West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner into which details of those elected to the post could be merged, particularly if they are not notable for anything else).
This is Paul (
talk) 23:11, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Is that consensus recorded anywhere? At the moment we have one article for the office, e.g. the aforementioned West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner, then we have potentially between one and three individual articles for each of the people elected into the role. I for one would support having the former, but only having the latter if the person is truly notable (which I guess would apply to around a quarter or less of those elected) 10mmsocket ( talk) 06:16, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think the consensus at the time the office was created was for PCCs to be notable in the same way we create articles for every elected MP, MSP, MS and so on (many of who have also previously only held local office, if any at all). We could have this discussion about any number of these PCCs, so perhaps what is needed is a wider debate about whether holders of the office should automatically qualify for articles, or whether the information could be incorporated into individual articles about the position (for example, there is an article for
West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner into which details of those elected to the post could be merged, particularly if they are not notable for anything else).
This is Paul (
talk) 23:11, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: I mean what is the current consensus on the
WP:NPOL status of PCCs. For example, in the federal system of the US, county sheriffs are not automatically notable, but statewide officials are. However, the UK makes this confusing, as West Mercia is neither a region nor a county, but rather a collection of counties. Per
List of administrative divisions by country, a
region is the equivalent to a province, while a
shire county is the equivalent of a county.
Curbon7 (
talk) 03:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- See my comment above. I am not aware there is consensus. 100% of the role articles have been created and I support that, but not 100% of the role holder articles (such as the one in this AfD nomination). I wouldn't get to hung up on counties vs. collection of counties. We have a specific number of police departments in England and Wales (plus one each in Scotland and Northern Ireland). Some are one county, some are one or more counties due to previous mergers, but all have the same equivalent status to each other, i.e. there is no hierarchy. 10mmsocket ( talk) 06:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- While there’s no written consensus specifically for the office of police and crime commissioner, consensus does come from the equal status they appear to have been given with MPs, etc. I seem to remember the articles on the individuals predate the police constituency articles, but could be wrong. Merging them into the office articles is a solution, but could be awkward and confusing. Why don’t we merge non-notable MPs into their constituency articles, for example?
- As I’ve said above, we could have this discussion about any number of these PCCs, and a wider discussion is probably needed about what to do going forward. Comparisons between countries is confusing, since these are not county sheriffs, nor are they people elected to a legislature. If anything they would have the same status as a directly elected mayor. I’m going to raise this matter at WP:UKPOLITICS because I think it needs addressing. By the way, I hope you’re aware that we don’t have such things as police departments in the UK. This is Paul ( talk) 12:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete PCCs fail
WP:NPOLITICIAN in the same way that leaders of county councils do and I fail to see why they should be considered more notable.
Number
5
7 14:32, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- In response to the comments above, Kent County Council covers a population of 1.58 million, Hampshire CC 1.38 million, Essex CC 1.49 million and Lancashire CC 1.22 million, so I would argue that this is very much akin to being the leader of a county council, if not actually less notable as they are only responsible for one thing, rather than many public services. Number 5 7 19:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Pretty much every PCC has an article. I think trying to get rid of them piecemeal is not at all productive. They generally satisfy WP:GNG in any case. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 14:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- None taken. I kept it short because WP:NPOL doesn't really apply to PCCs and GNG is the pertinent guideline. The keep votes haven't really made a good argument under GNG for John Campion in particular, and I'm just not seeing one. Hence the reason I voted the way I did. 4meter4 ( talk) 00:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless ( talk) 04:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless ( talk) 04:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, does not meet WP:NPOL or WP:NBIO. MrsSnoozyTurtle 06:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Keepfor my reasons listed above. PCCs generally satisfy WP:GNG and WP:OFFICEHOLDER. Many of these articles have existed now for as long as nine years without incident. During that time we've been through three sets of elections after which articles on newly elected PCCs have been created. As far as I can tell none have been contested until now, which makes me think policy is unclear on the importance/non-importance of this office. Comparisons above are drawn with local councillors, or county council leaders, although (perhaps as a result of the UK media's focus on law and order) PCCs tend to get much more media coverage; the office is clearly something different to that of an elected councillor and/or sheriff. PCCs shape policing policy in an area, control the budget, and have the power to hire and dismiss a force's chief constable { https://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/about-pccs/}, but the office is a wholly political one with PCCs not drawn from serving police officers. Finally, attempts to improve this article were undermined when content that would add to a notability case for WP:BIO was removed. This is Paul ( talk) 09:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)- That content was moved because it was about actions carried out as the elected official not as an individual. There is a distinction - the content would be relevant to the PCC article even if this individual article didn't exist.
10mmsocket (
talk) 11:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- The two are separate entities. The article is about the role of office itself, not the actions and decisions made by those who hold it. Consider whether you would do the same thing for a Member of Parliament and their constituency article, or articles about an individual trade union leader and that role. This is Paul ( talk) 14:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- That content was moved because it was about actions carried out as the elected official not as an individual. There is a distinction - the content would be relevant to the PCC article even if this individual article didn't exist.
10mmsocket (
talk) 11:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, as PCCS are elected over a large area, with electorates even larger than those of members of parliament. Jackattack1597 ( talk) 20:32, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 19:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 19:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep He satisfy WP:OFFICEHOLDER. - GorgonaJS ( talk) 00:11, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - this nomination was launched less than 60 seconds after unrelated edits elsewhere. Any suggestion WP:BEFORE was done defies common sense. I doubt the subject is even in the nominator's search history. It follows, then, that "per nom" contributions here are valueless and should be disregarded, along with simplistic appeals to the same guidelines the nominator blindly cites. What's left are well-thought-through arguments about how this subject meets our inclusion criteria, as marginal as that notability might be in this instance. There's also a solid case to be made for all subjects in this category being considered notable, but that's probably a matter of RFC to establish some consensus. St★lwart 111 05:58, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep an elected official whose election was covered by the BBC as well as local publications certainly meets WP:GNG and WP:NPOL (PCCs role probably falls somewhere between a judge and politician in the guidelines). Vladimir.copic ( talk) 04:59, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep An elected representative with 100,000+ votes from a region covering 1.3 million people. Always worth noting in cases such as these the arbitrary problem of using NPOL as an exclusionary tool: there are near 50 states with populations of less than 1.2 million whose national politicians are automatically accorded presumed notability. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 06:00, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment @ This is Paul: it appears that with this edit, you !voted a second time (no doubt in good faith!); I've struck the second one. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 06:10, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Goldsztajn: it was in good faith. I thought I had to vote again because the article had been relisted. Thanks for doing that anyway. This is Paul ( talk) 15:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I would think that the holder of an elected office covering a significant area is likely to be someone that people would search Wikipedia to find information about, and he seems to attract enough media coverage to suggest general notability. Dunarc ( talk) 20:32, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep: IMO, PCC is an inherently notable position (with electorates several times larger than those of MPs) and, from what I can see, this article has enough valid references to prove this particular individual's notability. I don't really see why this page has been nominated in the first place. Gazamp ( talk) 12:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Coolperson177 ( talk) 19:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
John Campion
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- John Campion ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Doesn't meet WP:BIO or WP:GNG. Boleyn ( talk) 18:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 18:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Shellwood ( talk) 18:20, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:OFFICEHOLDER. The article is short and needs updating but is about a holder of a notable office who is now in his second term. This is Paul ( talk) 18:26, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- PCCs (including this one) have received significant press coverage, albeit often on a local level. A police constituency can cover a population of several hundred thousand, or even into the millions. Indeed, the population of the West Mercia area is around 1.19 million. Consequently it is a notable post, and the holder of it is likely to attract ongoing media attention, thus making them notable. Campion's move to make the post a police and fire commissioner also adds weight to this article's notability. This is not a post akin to the leader of a local council. This is Paul ( talk) 19:26, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete looking at WP:POLITICIAN he doesn't have significant coverage, hasn't held anything other than local office, and is otherwise unremarkable and non-notable. Certainly no PCC in England and Wales is automatically notable by merit of being the officeholder. -- 10mmsocket ( talk) 21:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think the consensus at the time the office was created was for PCCs to be notable in the same way we create articles for every elected MP, MSP, MS and so on (many of who have also previously only held local office, if any at all). We could have this discussion about any number of these PCCs, so perhaps what is needed is a wider debate about whether holders of the office should automatically qualify for articles, or whether the information could be incorporated into individual articles about the position (for example, there is an article for
West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner into which details of those elected to the post could be merged, particularly if they are not notable for anything else).
This is Paul (
talk) 23:11, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Is that consensus recorded anywhere? At the moment we have one article for the office, e.g. the aforementioned West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner, then we have potentially between one and three individual articles for each of the people elected into the role. I for one would support having the former, but only having the latter if the person is truly notable (which I guess would apply to around a quarter or less of those elected) 10mmsocket ( talk) 06:16, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- I think the consensus at the time the office was created was for PCCs to be notable in the same way we create articles for every elected MP, MSP, MS and so on (many of who have also previously only held local office, if any at all). We could have this discussion about any number of these PCCs, so perhaps what is needed is a wider debate about whether holders of the office should automatically qualify for articles, or whether the information could be incorporated into individual articles about the position (for example, there is an article for
West Mercia Police and Crime Commissioner into which details of those elected to the post could be merged, particularly if they are not notable for anything else).
This is Paul (
talk) 23:11, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: I mean what is the current consensus on the
WP:NPOL status of PCCs. For example, in the federal system of the US, county sheriffs are not automatically notable, but statewide officials are. However, the UK makes this confusing, as West Mercia is neither a region nor a county, but rather a collection of counties. Per
List of administrative divisions by country, a
region is the equivalent to a province, while a
shire county is the equivalent of a county.
Curbon7 (
talk) 03:52, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- See my comment above. I am not aware there is consensus. 100% of the role articles have been created and I support that, but not 100% of the role holder articles (such as the one in this AfD nomination). I wouldn't get to hung up on counties vs. collection of counties. We have a specific number of police departments in England and Wales (plus one each in Scotland and Northern Ireland). Some are one county, some are one or more counties due to previous mergers, but all have the same equivalent status to each other, i.e. there is no hierarchy. 10mmsocket ( talk) 06:19, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- While there’s no written consensus specifically for the office of police and crime commissioner, consensus does come from the equal status they appear to have been given with MPs, etc. I seem to remember the articles on the individuals predate the police constituency articles, but could be wrong. Merging them into the office articles is a solution, but could be awkward and confusing. Why don’t we merge non-notable MPs into their constituency articles, for example?
- As I’ve said above, we could have this discussion about any number of these PCCs, and a wider discussion is probably needed about what to do going forward. Comparisons between countries is confusing, since these are not county sheriffs, nor are they people elected to a legislature. If anything they would have the same status as a directly elected mayor. I’m going to raise this matter at WP:UKPOLITICS because I think it needs addressing. By the way, I hope you’re aware that we don’t have such things as police departments in the UK. This is Paul ( talk) 12:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete PCCs fail
WP:NPOLITICIAN in the same way that leaders of county councils do and I fail to see why they should be considered more notable.
Number
5
7 14:32, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- In response to the comments above, Kent County Council covers a population of 1.58 million, Hampshire CC 1.38 million, Essex CC 1.49 million and Lancashire CC 1.22 million, so I would argue that this is very much akin to being the leader of a county council, if not actually less notable as they are only responsible for one thing, rather than many public services. Number 5 7 19:51, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep. Pretty much every PCC has an article. I think trying to get rid of them piecemeal is not at all productive. They generally satisfy WP:GNG in any case. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 14:44, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Law-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 14:45, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
- None taken. I kept it short because WP:NPOL doesn't really apply to PCCs and GNG is the pertinent guideline. The keep votes haven't really made a good argument under GNG for John Campion in particular, and I'm just not seeing one. Hence the reason I voted the way I did. 4meter4 ( talk) 00:32, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless ( talk) 04:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless ( talk) 04:41, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- Delete, does not meet WP:NPOL or WP:NBIO. MrsSnoozyTurtle 06:13, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Keepfor my reasons listed above. PCCs generally satisfy WP:GNG and WP:OFFICEHOLDER. Many of these articles have existed now for as long as nine years without incident. During that time we've been through three sets of elections after which articles on newly elected PCCs have been created. As far as I can tell none have been contested until now, which makes me think policy is unclear on the importance/non-importance of this office. Comparisons above are drawn with local councillors, or county council leaders, although (perhaps as a result of the UK media's focus on law and order) PCCs tend to get much more media coverage; the office is clearly something different to that of an elected councillor and/or sheriff. PCCs shape policing policy in an area, control the budget, and have the power to hire and dismiss a force's chief constable { https://www.choosemypcc.org.uk/about-pccs/}, but the office is a wholly political one with PCCs not drawn from serving police officers. Finally, attempts to improve this article were undermined when content that would add to a notability case for WP:BIO was removed. This is Paul ( talk) 09:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)- That content was moved because it was about actions carried out as the elected official not as an individual. There is a distinction - the content would be relevant to the PCC article even if this individual article didn't exist.
10mmsocket (
talk) 11:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- The two are separate entities. The article is about the role of office itself, not the actions and decisions made by those who hold it. Consider whether you would do the same thing for a Member of Parliament and their constituency article, or articles about an individual trade union leader and that role. This is Paul ( talk) 14:09, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- That content was moved because it was about actions carried out as the elected official not as an individual. There is a distinction - the content would be relevant to the PCC article even if this individual article didn't exist.
10mmsocket (
talk) 11:47, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep, as PCCS are elected over a large area, with electorates even larger than those of members of parliament. Jackattack1597 ( talk) 20:32, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 19:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 19:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep He satisfy WP:OFFICEHOLDER. - GorgonaJS ( talk) 00:11, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - this nomination was launched less than 60 seconds after unrelated edits elsewhere. Any suggestion WP:BEFORE was done defies common sense. I doubt the subject is even in the nominator's search history. It follows, then, that "per nom" contributions here are valueless and should be disregarded, along with simplistic appeals to the same guidelines the nominator blindly cites. What's left are well-thought-through arguments about how this subject meets our inclusion criteria, as marginal as that notability might be in this instance. There's also a solid case to be made for all subjects in this category being considered notable, but that's probably a matter of RFC to establish some consensus. St★lwart 111 05:58, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep an elected official whose election was covered by the BBC as well as local publications certainly meets WP:GNG and WP:NPOL (PCCs role probably falls somewhere between a judge and politician in the guidelines). Vladimir.copic ( talk) 04:59, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep An elected representative with 100,000+ votes from a region covering 1.3 million people. Always worth noting in cases such as these the arbitrary problem of using NPOL as an exclusionary tool: there are near 50 states with populations of less than 1.2 million whose national politicians are automatically accorded presumed notability. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 06:00, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Comment @ This is Paul: it appears that with this edit, you !voted a second time (no doubt in good faith!); I've struck the second one. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 06:10, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- @ Goldsztajn: it was in good faith. I thought I had to vote again because the article had been relisted. Thanks for doing that anyway. This is Paul ( talk) 15:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep - I would think that the holder of an elected office covering a significant area is likely to be someone that people would search Wikipedia to find information about, and he seems to attract enough media coverage to suggest general notability. Dunarc ( talk) 20:32, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
- Keep: IMO, PCC is an inherently notable position (with electorates several times larger than those of MPs) and, from what I can see, this article has enough valid references to prove this particular individual's notability. I don't really see why this page has been nominated in the first place. Gazamp ( talk) 12:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.