- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. I am willing to provide a userspace copy to anyone who wishes to develop this further. Vanamonde ( Talk) 04:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- John Blair Moore ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Seems to fail WP:GNG (not much besides these obituaries: from his former employer, a cartoonist blog, and a former collaborator. Also doesn’t seem to pass WP:AUTHOR. — MarkH21 ( talk) 06:10, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note that the article was BLP-prodded on March 5, 2018 and the de-prod was due to the addition of two external wiki sources (not RS). — MarkH21 ( talk) 06:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've added one additional source, and can only say that I think, when deciding whether to delete or not delete, it is better for Wikipedia to include information if the issue is at all in doubt. John Blair Moore wrote and drew comic books for major publishers, most notably Disney. If he had worked in the superhero genre, his work would probably have been more widely reviewed. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:08, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. — MarkH21 ( talk) 06:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. I think the obituary from the
St. Louis Dispatch is still a good one, and a very in-depth article. He seems like he might be notable, but I am honestly not sure how reputable some of those comic book publications are. Without those, I wonder if a redirect and partial merge to the Dispatch might be better.
71.163.163.163 (
talk)
18:31, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- As the Dispatch is the subject's former employer, it is not independent of the subject. If it was not connected to the subject then it could count towards WP:GNG, which requires significant coverage by multiple independent reliable sources (currently I see none). Similarly, I don't see evidence that his works pass WP:AUTHOR, WP:ARTIST, or another alternative notability criterion. — MarkH21 ( talk) 18:51, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete a search turned up the sourced mentioned int he AFD nom, and not much else. GNG fail. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:10, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - working on notable characters in comics doesn't confer notability to the artist, it just means he was a typical freelancer. There's no indication he added anything of significance to any of the Disney properties the way Carl Barks did, for example. There are probably print reviews of his Piranha Press series in trade magazines, but creating one (possibly) notable series doesn't meet my criteria for a stand-alone article. Argento Surfer ( talk) 14:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - But this is a personal, esthetic judgement. There are more than a thousand American comic book artists with articles on Wikipedia. I would rank Moore in the top ten percent. I hate to see him forgotten. But it is true that he has attracted relatively little notice. Rick Norwood ( talk) 01:45, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's funny you say that because the notability policy is actually based on attracting notice, in the form of reliable published sources.
ThatMontrealIP (
talk)
04:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that notability is entirely based on "attracting notice". There are many examples of people who are famous today who died in obscurity. But, I admit it makes it a hard call. How do you weigh the opinions of a few who care passionately about an art form against the opinions of the many who have no interest in that art form. The art form in this case is the non-superhero comic book, but I think it would be hard to find many living American poets who have attracted much notice, and yet Wikipedia has articles on more than a thousand articles on 21st century American poets, and I'm glad that it does.
Rick Norwood (
talk)
12:50, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- You're free to have your own opinion on the matter, but Wikipedia measures notability by the amount of attention a subject garners. That's important because third party reporting is what we (ideally) use to build articles. Coverage isn't limited to mass market outlets read by people with no interest in the topic. Trade magazines like The Comics Journal and Comic Buyer's Guide and websites like Comics Beat are considered reliable for their field. If you can find web or print articles on John Blair Moore, you might be able to persuade others here that he's worth including.
Argento Surfer (
talk)
12:50, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the suggestion of Comics Beat. I checked it out, and will cite its obituary of Moore on the JBM page. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:47, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're free to have your own opinion on the matter, but Wikipedia measures notability by the amount of attention a subject garners. That's important because third party reporting is what we (ideally) use to build articles. Coverage isn't limited to mass market outlets read by people with no interest in the topic. Trade magazines like The Comics Journal and Comic Buyer's Guide and websites like Comics Beat are considered reliable for their field. If you can find web or print articles on John Blair Moore, you might be able to persuade others here that he's worth including.
Argento Surfer (
talk)
12:50, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that notability is entirely based on "attracting notice". There are many examples of people who are famous today who died in obscurity. But, I admit it makes it a hard call. How do you weigh the opinions of a few who care passionately about an art form against the opinions of the many who have no interest in that art form. The art form in this case is the non-superhero comic book, but I think it would be hard to find many living American poets who have attracted much notice, and yet Wikipedia has articles on more than a thousand articles on 21st century American poets, and I'm glad that it does.
Rick Norwood (
talk)
12:50, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's funny you say that because the notability policy is actually based on attracting notice, in the form of reliable published sources.
ThatMontrealIP (
talk)
04:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Lean toward Delete, but Userfy seems acceptable. I haven't found evidence of notability, but, perhaps with the help of Rick's Facebook friends, he can find published articles about about this artist. It's not absurd. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:32, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This AfD has drawn attention from editors who may personally know the article creator, Rick Norwood ( talk · contribs), due to a Facebook post by the him (noted here by Orangemike ( talk · contribs) and alluded to above). — MarkH21 ( talk) 07:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've added several references and quotes from reviews of his work, which is, of course, what I should have done in the first place. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. I am willing to provide a userspace copy to anyone who wishes to develop this further. Vanamonde ( Talk) 04:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- John Blair Moore ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Seems to fail WP:GNG (not much besides these obituaries: from his former employer, a cartoonist blog, and a former collaborator. Also doesn’t seem to pass WP:AUTHOR. — MarkH21 ( talk) 06:10, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note that the article was BLP-prodded on March 5, 2018 and the de-prod was due to the addition of two external wiki sources (not RS). — MarkH21 ( talk) 06:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've added one additional source, and can only say that I think, when deciding whether to delete or not delete, it is better for Wikipedia to include information if the issue is at all in doubt. John Blair Moore wrote and drew comic books for major publishers, most notably Disney. If he had worked in the superhero genre, his work would probably have been more widely reviewed. Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:08, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. — MarkH21 ( talk) 06:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 07:25, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Comment. I think the obituary from the
St. Louis Dispatch is still a good one, and a very in-depth article. He seems like he might be notable, but I am honestly not sure how reputable some of those comic book publications are. Without those, I wonder if a redirect and partial merge to the Dispatch might be better.
71.163.163.163 (
talk)
18:31, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- As the Dispatch is the subject's former employer, it is not independent of the subject. If it was not connected to the subject then it could count towards WP:GNG, which requires significant coverage by multiple independent reliable sources (currently I see none). Similarly, I don't see evidence that his works pass WP:AUTHOR, WP:ARTIST, or another alternative notability criterion. — MarkH21 ( talk) 18:51, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete a search turned up the sourced mentioned int he AFD nom, and not much else. GNG fail. ThatMontrealIP ( talk) 02:10, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Delete - working on notable characters in comics doesn't confer notability to the artist, it just means he was a typical freelancer. There's no indication he added anything of significance to any of the Disney properties the way Carl Barks did, for example. There are probably print reviews of his Piranha Press series in trade magazines, but creating one (possibly) notable series doesn't meet my criteria for a stand-alone article. Argento Surfer ( talk) 14:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
- Keep - But this is a personal, esthetic judgement. There are more than a thousand American comic book artists with articles on Wikipedia. I would rank Moore in the top ten percent. I hate to see him forgotten. But it is true that he has attracted relatively little notice. Rick Norwood ( talk) 01:45, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's funny you say that because the notability policy is actually based on attracting notice, in the form of reliable published sources.
ThatMontrealIP (
talk)
04:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that notability is entirely based on "attracting notice". There are many examples of people who are famous today who died in obscurity. But, I admit it makes it a hard call. How do you weigh the opinions of a few who care passionately about an art form against the opinions of the many who have no interest in that art form. The art form in this case is the non-superhero comic book, but I think it would be hard to find many living American poets who have attracted much notice, and yet Wikipedia has articles on more than a thousand articles on 21st century American poets, and I'm glad that it does.
Rick Norwood (
talk)
12:50, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- You're free to have your own opinion on the matter, but Wikipedia measures notability by the amount of attention a subject garners. That's important because third party reporting is what we (ideally) use to build articles. Coverage isn't limited to mass market outlets read by people with no interest in the topic. Trade magazines like The Comics Journal and Comic Buyer's Guide and websites like Comics Beat are considered reliable for their field. If you can find web or print articles on John Blair Moore, you might be able to persuade others here that he's worth including.
Argento Surfer (
talk)
12:50, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the suggestion of Comics Beat. I checked it out, and will cite its obituary of Moore on the JBM page. Rick Norwood ( talk) 14:47, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're free to have your own opinion on the matter, but Wikipedia measures notability by the amount of attention a subject garners. That's important because third party reporting is what we (ideally) use to build articles. Coverage isn't limited to mass market outlets read by people with no interest in the topic. Trade magazines like The Comics Journal and Comic Buyer's Guide and websites like Comics Beat are considered reliable for their field. If you can find web or print articles on John Blair Moore, you might be able to persuade others here that he's worth including.
Argento Surfer (
talk)
12:50, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think that notability is entirely based on "attracting notice". There are many examples of people who are famous today who died in obscurity. But, I admit it makes it a hard call. How do you weigh the opinions of a few who care passionately about an art form against the opinions of the many who have no interest in that art form. The art form in this case is the non-superhero comic book, but I think it would be hard to find many living American poets who have attracted much notice, and yet Wikipedia has articles on more than a thousand articles on 21st century American poets, and I'm glad that it does.
Rick Norwood (
talk)
12:50, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- It's funny you say that because the notability policy is actually based on attracting notice, in the form of reliable published sources.
ThatMontrealIP (
talk)
04:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Lean toward Delete, but Userfy seems acceptable. I haven't found evidence of notability, but, perhaps with the help of Rick's Facebook friends, he can find published articles about about this artist. It's not absurd. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:32, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This AfD has drawn attention from editors who may personally know the article creator, Rick Norwood ( talk · contribs), due to a Facebook post by the him (noted here by Orangemike ( talk · contribs) and alluded to above). — MarkH21 ( talk) 07:08, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've added several references and quotes from reviews of his work, which is, of course, what I should have done in the first place. Rick Norwood ( talk) 15:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.