- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Several comments indicating work that needs to be done to the article, but no need for the AFD to remain open for that to happen. I am not at all knowledgable in the subject matter, so I will leave it to someone else to handle moving the article and changing to the lead section accordingly. Sjakkalle (Check!) 19:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Jeryn Hogarth
- Jeryn Hogarth ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I'm not sure about this one, so I'm putting it to the community. The page history (the article was created just before Jessica Jones (TV series) aired), balance of how the article is written (well over half the text is about the TV show character with a different name), and the balance of sourced to unsourced material (all three sources currently cited are about the TV show) all make me very suspicious about whether the comic book character meets GNG, whether this page should be moved to match the more-famous, gender-flipped TV version, or whether the page should just be deleted or redirected to a list of characters. I'm basically neutral here, but I think the community should discuss it. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 03:24, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Rename, and overwrite redirect to List of Marvel Comics character: H. I've decided that in my opinion the solution is somewhere between User:Argento Surfer and User:FudgeFury. The article is currently all about the gender-swapped TV version with a different name, and has been since its creation, so the page history should be kept under a new title Jeri Hogarth, and discussion of the less-notable comic version should be kept in a separate list. A link to the Jeri Hogarth article should be added as a "see also" or in the discussion of Jeryn in the list page. Given what they've already said I actually think AS and FF will both agree with this proposal, which is why I'm pinging them. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2016 March 17. — cyberbot I Talk to my owner:Online 03:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 04:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 04:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Marvel Comics characters: H. The character seems noteworthy within Marvel Comics, but not notable enough for a standalone article. Argento Surfer ( talk) 17:07, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep it is notable enough for a standalone article especially since it is portrayed in more than one kind of major media.
FudgeFury(
talk|
sign|
contribs) 00:35, 18 March 2016 (UTC)..
- @ FudgeFury: Have you read either the article or my opening comment? The more famous portrayal in the recent Netflix show is a gender-swapped version with a different name, so simply saying "Keep because the character has been adapted to other media" is not a good rationale, because you should actually be !voting for "Rename and rewrite to provide due weight". Also, if you know anything about the MCU, you know that "the character has been portrayed in more than one kind of major media" is not a good rationale for keeping a standalone article, because these films and TV shows are overrun with cameos by obscure comic book characters, at least one of whom was plucked from an obscure book from sixty years ago and made into a central character in a network TV show (similar to Hogarth, the character was radically altered from being a villainous white character to being a a heroic African-American whose race is mentioned several times throughout the show; but at least he wasn't renamed). Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 02:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - Let this page stay. This character is a supporting character in the comics of Iron Fist and Heroes for Hire. For all we know, they might adapt Jeri Hogarth into the comics as a relative of Jeryn. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 17:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @ Rtkat3: Being a supporting fictional character in two relatively minor comic book franchises is not how we do things, and the articles you link to above don't even discuss ongoing comic book series of those titles -- they are about other fictional characters who themselves are more prominent and probably do meet GNG. Also, WP:CRYSTAL: "the independently notable gender-swapped version of this character may become a separate figure in the comic books at some later date" doesn't work as a rationale, because the male version called Jeryn still is not discussed in any detail in reliable third-party sources. And on top of that you are saying that if that happens then the content of our current article will be found to have been inaccurate, as our article clearly establishes what all the reliable sources say -- that Jeri is a gender-swapped version of Jeryn. Your rationale seems less in tune with a !vote to keep the standalone article as is than with something akin to Argento Surfer's above proposal to merge with a list of minor Marvel characters. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Jeryn hasn't appeared in almost a decade. And meanwhile, shoehorning Jeri in as a relative of Jeryn would be a little awkward given that she's explicitly described as the MCU adaptation of the Earth-616 character (her legal name is supposedly even "Jeryn"). Sure, it wouldn't be _impossible_, but it's also not impossible that they'll write me, you, and Mr. T in as new relatives of Jeryn; that possibility isn't enough to make him notable. -- 50.0.128.185 ( talk) 10:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Rename and rewrite or delete. The fact that they're different characters isn't really relevant. After all, Will Simpson has even less in common with the comics' Frank "Nuke" Simpson, but Will and Frank don't need separate pages. The issue here is that comics Jeryn clearly isn't notable enough to have his own page, but TV's Jeri may be. I'm not sure she is. So far, she's a supporting character in a 13-episode miniseries, who made one cameo in a related miniseries, and has been announced to appear (possibly just as another cameo) in another. It certainly seems _likely_ that she'll end up being an important link that ties together the four Netflix series and the Defenders, but is there a reliable source saying she will? If not, I think they both belong on the list page. If so, I think the article should be renamed to Jeri, because she's the reason the character is notable. (According to the producers, her name is actually Jeryn, and Jeri is a nickname--but she's only ever called Jeri on screen, and in the credits, and even on the props, so I can't imagine anyone will search for her as Jeryn...) -- 50.0.128.185 ( talk) 10:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 04:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 04:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - The article does needs a bit of attention though. -- S talk/ contribs 02:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @ S: As discussed above, you can be in favour of "keeping" this article and still think it should be renamed and rewritten. The character for whom the article is currently named (and whom the article currently appears to think it is about) almost certainly fails GNG, being a minor side-character from a few comic that weren't very well-known to begin with. The article was written to coincide with the release of the Jessica Jones TV series and at present is almost entirely about the character's (gender-flipped and renamed) representation in that TV series. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 08:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's a no-brainer Keep - I think because of the Jessica Jones connection, and the fact that the character just appeared in season 2 of Daredevil, mean that he/she will continue to play an important part of the Marvel universe, on screen and off. Fireflyfanboy ( talk) 07:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- @ Fireflyfanboy: Please read the discussion, or at least the opening comment, before declaring that something is a no-brainer. Not all AFDs are simply a case of "this page should be deleted" vs. "this page should not be deleted" Your above comment implies you agree with me that his page should be renamed and radically tweaked to be more visibly about the obviously more notable Netflix version of the character, and the current title should be redirected to a list of minor Iron Fist characters. "This character was referenced in a couple MCU TV shows means that the comic book version of the character is notable enouh to merit an independent article" doesn't even begin to make sense -- these TV shows are filled with cameos by and references to obscure comic book characters who haven't appeared in the comics in decades. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 13:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - but move to Jeri Hogarth and rewite. The subject of the article seems notable enough to me to receive an article, but I do agree it should be moved and needs attention. — Omni Flames ( talk contribs) 23:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. — Omni Flames ( talk contribs) 05:41, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Several comments indicating work that needs to be done to the article, but no need for the AFD to remain open for that to happen. I am not at all knowledgable in the subject matter, so I will leave it to someone else to handle moving the article and changing to the lead section accordingly. Sjakkalle (Check!) 19:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Jeryn Hogarth
- Jeryn Hogarth ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I'm not sure about this one, so I'm putting it to the community. The page history (the article was created just before Jessica Jones (TV series) aired), balance of how the article is written (well over half the text is about the TV show character with a different name), and the balance of sourced to unsourced material (all three sources currently cited are about the TV show) all make me very suspicious about whether the comic book character meets GNG, whether this page should be moved to match the more-famous, gender-flipped TV version, or whether the page should just be deleted or redirected to a list of characters. I'm basically neutral here, but I think the community should discuss it. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 03:24, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
Rename, and overwrite redirect to List of Marvel Comics character: H. I've decided that in my opinion the solution is somewhere between User:Argento Surfer and User:FudgeFury. The article is currently all about the gender-swapped TV version with a different name, and has been since its creation, so the page history should be kept under a new title Jeri Hogarth, and discussion of the less-notable comic version should be kept in a separate list. A link to the Jeri Hogarth article should be added as a "see also" or in the discussion of Jeryn in the list page. Given what they've already said I actually think AS and FF will both agree with this proposal, which is why I'm pinging them. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log ( step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2016 March 17. — cyberbot I Talk to my owner:Online 03:36, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 04:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. /wiae /tlk 04:00, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Merge to List of Marvel Comics characters: H. The character seems noteworthy within Marvel Comics, but not notable enough for a standalone article. Argento Surfer ( talk) 17:07, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep it is notable enough for a standalone article especially since it is portrayed in more than one kind of major media.
FudgeFury(
talk|
sign|
contribs) 00:35, 18 March 2016 (UTC)..
- @ FudgeFury: Have you read either the article or my opening comment? The more famous portrayal in the recent Netflix show is a gender-swapped version with a different name, so simply saying "Keep because the character has been adapted to other media" is not a good rationale, because you should actually be !voting for "Rename and rewrite to provide due weight". Also, if you know anything about the MCU, you know that "the character has been portrayed in more than one kind of major media" is not a good rationale for keeping a standalone article, because these films and TV shows are overrun with cameos by obscure comic book characters, at least one of whom was plucked from an obscure book from sixty years ago and made into a central character in a network TV show (similar to Hogarth, the character was radically altered from being a villainous white character to being a a heroic African-American whose race is mentioned several times throughout the show; but at least he wasn't renamed). Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 02:15, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - Let this page stay. This character is a supporting character in the comics of Iron Fist and Heroes for Hire. For all we know, they might adapt Jeri Hogarth into the comics as a relative of Jeryn. -- Rtkat3 ( talk) 17:40, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- @ Rtkat3: Being a supporting fictional character in two relatively minor comic book franchises is not how we do things, and the articles you link to above don't even discuss ongoing comic book series of those titles -- they are about other fictional characters who themselves are more prominent and probably do meet GNG. Also, WP:CRYSTAL: "the independently notable gender-swapped version of this character may become a separate figure in the comic books at some later date" doesn't work as a rationale, because the male version called Jeryn still is not discussed in any detail in reliable third-party sources. And on top of that you are saying that if that happens then the content of our current article will be found to have been inaccurate, as our article clearly establishes what all the reliable sources say -- that Jeri is a gender-swapped version of Jeryn. Your rationale seems less in tune with a !vote to keep the standalone article as is than with something akin to Argento Surfer's above proposal to merge with a list of minor Marvel characters. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 05:35, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Jeryn hasn't appeared in almost a decade. And meanwhile, shoehorning Jeri in as a relative of Jeryn would be a little awkward given that she's explicitly described as the MCU adaptation of the Earth-616 character (her legal name is supposedly even "Jeryn"). Sure, it wouldn't be _impossible_, but it's also not impossible that they'll write me, you, and Mr. T in as new relatives of Jeryn; that possibility isn't enough to make him notable. -- 50.0.128.185 ( talk) 10:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
- Rename and rewrite or delete. The fact that they're different characters isn't really relevant. After all, Will Simpson has even less in common with the comics' Frank "Nuke" Simpson, but Will and Frank don't need separate pages. The issue here is that comics Jeryn clearly isn't notable enough to have his own page, but TV's Jeri may be. I'm not sure she is. So far, she's a supporting character in a 13-episode miniseries, who made one cameo in a related miniseries, and has been announced to appear (possibly just as another cameo) in another. It certainly seems _likely_ that she'll end up being an important link that ties together the four Netflix series and the Defenders, but is there a reliable source saying she will? If not, I think they both belong on the list page. If so, I think the article should be renamed to Jeri, because she's the reason the character is notable. (According to the producers, her name is actually Jeryn, and Jeri is a nickname--but she's only ever called Jeri on screen, and in the credits, and even on the props, so I can't imagine anyone will search for her as Jeryn...) -- 50.0.128.185 ( talk) 10:03, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 04:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a cup // beans // 04:42, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - The article does needs a bit of attention though. -- S talk/ contribs 02:14, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
- @ S: As discussed above, you can be in favour of "keeping" this article and still think it should be renamed and rewritten. The character for whom the article is currently named (and whom the article currently appears to think it is about) almost certainly fails GNG, being a minor side-character from a few comic that weren't very well-known to begin with. The article was written to coincide with the release of the Jessica Jones TV series and at present is almost entirely about the character's (gender-flipped and renamed) representation in that TV series. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 08:57, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It's a no-brainer Keep - I think because of the Jessica Jones connection, and the fact that the character just appeared in season 2 of Daredevil, mean that he/she will continue to play an important part of the Marvel universe, on screen and off. Fireflyfanboy ( talk) 07:46, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- @ Fireflyfanboy: Please read the discussion, or at least the opening comment, before declaring that something is a no-brainer. Not all AFDs are simply a case of "this page should be deleted" vs. "this page should not be deleted" Your above comment implies you agree with me that his page should be renamed and radically tweaked to be more visibly about the obviously more notable Netflix version of the character, and the current title should be redirected to a list of minor Iron Fist characters. "This character was referenced in a couple MCU TV shows means that the comic book version of the character is notable enouh to merit an independent article" doesn't even begin to make sense -- these TV shows are filled with cameos by and references to obscure comic book characters who haven't appeared in the comics in decades. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 13:41, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - but move to Jeri Hogarth and rewite. The subject of the article seems notable enough to me to receive an article, but I do agree it should be moved and needs attention. — Omni Flames ( talk contribs) 23:18, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. — Omni Flames ( talk contribs) 05:41, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.