The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The keep !votes are mainly predicated on the incorrect inference that Mr. Perry is Mayor of London, which he is not. Stifle ( talk) 16:01, 13 July 2022 (UTC) reply

Jason Perry (politician)

Jason Perry (politician) (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)

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Fails WP:NPOL and, in my opinion, WP:GNG too. I didn't tag it for speedy deletion (based on the previous AfD), since he was recently elected to a different position (Mayor). - MPGuy2824 ( talk) 05:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politicians and England. - MPGuy2824 ( talk) 05:54, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply

Keep I can’t really believe we’re doing this when I think there was a consensus previously that a Directly Elected Mayor of a London Borough does meet the notability standard (the dispute before was whether a candidate did, and I think the agreement was that they didn’t). He has the 2nd largest personal mandate of any politician in London (after only Sadiq Khan) as he is the Directly Elected Mayor of London’s Largest Borough. He is no less notable than 3 of the other 5 Mayors (Lutfur Rahman of course being extremely notable). The only difference in terms of status between Mr Perry and Mr Egan, Mr Glanville and Ms Khan is the party they represent. If Editors do choose to delete this article we should of course be reviewing all others in London and reaching the same conclusion (with the exception previously described for Lutfur Rahman who does have a different level of notability).

• Keep London Boroughs means pretty big mayors. WP:POLOUTCOMES gives us "Mayors: Mayors of cities of at least regional prominence have usually survived AFD, although the article should say more than just "Jane Doe is the mayor of Cityville" and additionally, "precedent has tended to favor keeping members of the main citywide government of internationally famous metropolitan areas such as Toronto, Chicago, Tokyo, or London." (my bold). Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 14:22, 5 July 2022 (UTC) reply

That covers Sadiq Khan, not the mayor of a borough. Bearcat ( talk) 16:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep. Directly-elected mayors in the UK are clearly notable and pass WP:POLITICIAN. He passes WP:GNG in any case. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 10:24, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply

  Not so clear considering it's not written down anywhere I can easily find. Perhaps if there's consensus, we should actually add it somewhere people can see it, instead of leaving it hidden on some talk page and calling it a day, and then assuming everyone knows about it. Curbon7 ( talk) 12:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply

It thought the above was quite clear, no? From WP:POLOUTCOMES? That's not a core policy, I know, but it's pretty specific guidance as to likely outcome... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 13:21, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply

That's different from what Necro is saying. Yes mayors of places like Manchester or places of that size are notable per the outcomes, but what I'm referring to is that Necro is implying that all directly-elected mayors in the UK are notable, meaning does this include, for example, the directly elected mayor of the Borough of Copeland, even though that is a pretty small city; and if so, we should probably notate that somewhere, so as to avert confusion. Curbon7 ( talk) 13:50, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply

Gotcha. No, I'd not have any idea of any 'catchall' policy. London, clearly. Major cities, clearly. St Davids? Not so much... Best Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 13:54, 6 July 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete unless the article can see significant improvement. The notability bar for mayors always lives or dies on their sourceability, and never on any sort of "this place is so important that its mayors are 'inherently' notable even if they're sourced for beans" freebies — but this is referenced entirely to primary sources that are not support for notability at all, and contains none of the substantive content about the significance and impact of his mayoralty that would be necessary to establish his notability as a mayor — it's literally just "Jason Perry is a mayor, so here's a couple of sentences of pre-mayoral career background, the end", which is not how you establish the notability of a mayor. Properly establishing a mayor's notability requires writing and reliably sourcing (i.e. to media coverage) content about specific things he did as mayor, specific projects he spearheaded, specific effects he had on the development of the place he was mayor of, and on and so forth, but there's absolutely nothing like that here. And the "precedent" cited above covers off the citywide offices — i.e. Mayor of London and Greater London Council — and does not create an automatic inclusion freebie for the borough councillors or mayors in every individual London borough in the absence of WP:GNG-worthy reliable sourcing. Bearcat ( talk) 16:22, 7 July 2022 (UTC) reply

  This is not consistent with the approach taken to all previous Labour Mayors in London - Damien Egan, Philip Glanville and Rokhsana Fiaz all suffer from the exact same issue regarding sourceability. A more citations needed message such as that on Mr Egan's article would certainly be appropriate, as would Template:Primary sources. To delete would be totally inconsistent with all previous editorial decisions on Directly elected Mayors in Greater London - every one previously has been viewed as notable, with articles that are largely similar in terms of size and content. If you wished to establish a new precedent here it would arguably require the pages of all other current Mayors with the exception of Lutfur Rahman (who clearly passes WP:GNG) to be deleted too for consistency. Borough Mayors certainly hold a higher status than Borough Councillors, and many would argue would meet WP:POLITICIAN - Jason Perry has certainly received significant press coverage even if the article has not yet caught up - [1]. As for WP:POLOUTCOMES, Croydon would arguably meet the definition of "City of at least regional prominence" (despite not actually being a City). It is the largest Borough in the entirety of London, and is larger than a significant number of English Cities. Trimfrim20 ( talk) 17:00, 7 July 2022 (UTC) reply

I'm not "making up" anything that varies one comma from established consensus. POLOUTCOMES explicitly says "the main citywide government", and says nothing whatsoever about sub-citywide boroughs — it's the mayor of London and the Greater London Council who get automatic presumptions of notability regardless of the quality of the article, while borough mayors and borough councillors are considered notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia only if their sourcing and substance are solidly on point enough to show that they pass WP:NPOL #2, and get no automatic notability freebies in the absence of a solid and well-sourced article that demonstrates passage of NPOL #2. Bearcat ( talk) 14:35, 9 July 2022 (UTC) reply

That's a misrendering of POLOUTCOMES. You are citing the municipal officers/councilors section, not the mayors section. Referring to the *mayor* section: an urban agglomeration of 350,000+ people is not what would generally be understood as small. Regards, Goldsztajn ( talk) 08:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC) reply

• Delete per Bearcat. This subject is not the Mayor of London, so does not pass WP:GNG. The question, for a local official (not a major city mayor), is whether there are multiple sources that discuss the policies and specific accomplishments of the subject. None of the sources in the article or discussed here amount to more than "he exists." -- Enos733 ( talk) 16:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC) reply

  It’s been mentioned earlier in the discussion that there is significant coverage (BBC, ITV and London Evening Standard) that is not yet included in the article, all of which would result in him passing both WP:GNG and WP:NPOL, as all other London Borough Mayors are considered to do so. Adding a {{ More citations needed}} tag would be sufficient in this case, and as per WP:ATD “ If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the page”. Trimfrim20 ( talk) 00:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC) reply

• Keep I'll just note WP:NEXIST is worth recalling. Fairly simple searching shows national media coverage of Perry's candidacy and election (noted for bucking the trend of Conservative losses in the 2022 local elections) from the BBC, ITV, The Financial Times, and The Evening Standard (although the last is technically a London, rather than national, paper). There's widespread, independent coverage of Perry's policies since being Mayor in a number of outlets ( "New Croydon mayor Jason Perry misses first scrutiny meeting due to Covid", Residents question new Croydon mayor's vow to re-open popular Purley Pool Croydon mayor blames 'rising costs' as new library set to become shop Croydon mayor defends choice to make all decisions himself). We're discussing a person in charge of a constituency with a population of 350,000+ with 95,000 votes in the 2022 election on a 35% turnout...that's a larger electorate than the average House of Commons constituency. Regards, -- Goldsztajn ( talk) 11:41, 13 July 2022 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.