- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. If it is no longer a populated place, that can be reflected in the article via editing. Aoidh ( talk) 18:41, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Ivy, Iowa
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- Ivy, Iowa ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is not a named place in any meaningful sense. According to Google Maps, the location is part of Altoona, Iowa. The county website makes no mention of the place, but notes a few plats in the area with names such as Ivy Knolls. There is a church in the vicinity with "Ivy" in the name, but that church's website says it is in Altoona. Walt Yoder ( talk) 02:38, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iowa-related deletion discussions. Walt Yoder ( talk) 02:38, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- According to google maps it is actually its own location:
Ivy, Iowa on Google Maps
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 04:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- That's what I went off of. Also the fact it was on
List of unincorporated communities in Iowa
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 15:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be creating articles based on Google Maps and unsourced lists. Both trace their origins to the GNIS database which is known to be full of erroneous entries. –
dlthewave
☎ 16:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- The GNIS is a government site
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 19:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- which means that the data is not erroneous, as it is maintained by the government.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 01:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @
PaulGamerBoy360, this is dead wrong. See
WP:GNIS for errors in this database like
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susie, Washington. It regularly incorrectly classifies locations as populated places, and many populated places are not actually notable communities either.
Reywas92
Talk 13:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- acording to wikipedia gnis page it says that homesteads and ranches and farms are not populated places, bu they are as people live there.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 15:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, kid. The USGS has actual definitions that match actual usage (one family's house or ranch obviously shouldn't be classified the same as a full populated settlement) and a populated place is "Place or area with clustered or scattered buildings and a permanent human population (city, settlement, town, village). A populated place is usually not incorporated and by definition has no legal boundaries. However, a populated place may have a corresponding "civil" record, the legal boundaries of which may or may not coincide with the perceived populated place. Distinct from Census and Civil classes." A homestead is considered a locale, which is "Place at which there is or was human activity; it does not include populated places, mines, and dams (battlefield, crossroad, camp, farm, ghost town, landing, railroad siding, ranch, ruins, site, station, windmill)." The GNIS's feature classes are regularly inconsistent with more accurate feature classes used in National Gazetteers, and they still do not establish notability or provide useful information to base an article on alone, even if Google Maps draws their labels from it. Reywas92 Talk 18:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- acording to wikipedia gnis page it says that homesteads and ranches and farms are not populated places, bu they are as people live there.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 15:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @
PaulGamerBoy360, this is dead wrong. See
WP:GNIS for errors in this database like
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susie, Washington. It regularly incorrectly classifies locations as populated places, and many populated places are not actually notable communities either.
Reywas92
Talk 13:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- which means that the data is not erroneous, as it is maintained by the government.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 01:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- The GNIS is a government site
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 19:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be creating articles based on Google Maps and unsourced lists. Both trace their origins to the GNIS database which is known to be full of erroneous entries. –
dlthewave
☎ 16:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- That's what I went off of. Also the fact it was on
List of unincorporated communities in Iowa
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 15:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. We need to determine whether it was ever a named place. Once notable, always notable. This report from 1891 indicates that a woman who made prize-winning butter lived here. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 04:13, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - "Named" does not automatically mean "notable". This place doesn't appear to be (or ever have been) officially recognized, and available sources are passing mentions rather than SIGCOV as required be GEOLAND. – dlthewave ☎ 15:40, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- By the way, I think it says it's in Altoona for postal reasonings. LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 15:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Information on Ivy is low, but the part about it not being mentioned on the county website makes no sense because 1. It's not incorporated and 2. There isn't even a single other unincorporated community on that website either.
- If we can find more information on its founding then then it's a keep, if we can't find any information within a week or 2, then, It would be fine to delete it LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 16:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- leaning keep I am finding traces of this which seem to indicate it once was a small town.
It had a post office in 1900, and a
1918 business directory lists a smithy and a general store. There's also a
state census from 1885 which lists it as a town. If you take a street view drive past on the old road, there's the remains of a couple of businesses and the church. Looking athte aerials, what happened was at at some point in the 1960s someone decided that the road needed to be widened to four lanes, and for whatever reason they decided to swerve slightly south at Ivy, literally obliterating the entire southern side of the town, where older aerials show maybe a dozen buildings. I have to imagine that searching in the right local paper would probably find something about this, but newspaper searching is not a strong point for me. But I'm pretty sure that Ivy was a town in the past of which a bare trace remains, largely in the name of the church.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- I drove by it and actually into it the other day. Some houses and a church on a small road. As you found a source that it had a post office. But no buildings with the exception of the church looked like it could be a post office, making the southern part being removed a very reasonable thought and making it as small as it is now LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 23:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 07:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)- We've found more info, where it had a post office in 1900, was listed in the state census in 1885, and a business directory in 1918. It also had a southern part of the town that was removed sometime inbetween 1955 and 1972 when Iowa 163 was extended to a 2 lane highway
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 00:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- So i would say keep (I might be a bit biased due to me creating this page) LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 00:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- We've found more info, where it had a post office in 1900, was listed in the state census in 1885, and a business directory in 1918. It also had a southern part of the town that was removed sometime inbetween 1955 and 1972 when Iowa 163 was extended to a 2 lane highway
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 00:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, or leaning that way, or at least create mention in Altoona article and redirect to there. No signup required, you can access historic newspapers at Newspaper Archive (and maybe also at Newspapers.com?) via https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/?next_url=/users/my_library/ (where you simply login to use a Wikipedia Library card).
- First hit on search of newspapers in Iowa with Keyword "Ivy, Iowa" that I check is: Homestead Newspaper Archives October 1, 1897 Page 6 (perhaps you have to be connected in for that link to work) has article "Horticulture at the Iowa State Fair" which includes at least two mentions, as home location for two persons who have seedlings or other submissions in the fair.
- Official notice given in Altoona Herald Newspaper Archives June 29, 1972 Page 10, for bids for construction of a Junior-Senior High School, 8325 N. E. University, Ivy, Iowa, for the Southeast Polk County Community School District, Ivy, Iowa. Proposals are due to the office of the secretary of the Board of Directors, 9070 N.E. University, Ivy, Iowa. The word "County" is included in the 1972 notice; this would appear to be what is now covered in Wikipedia as Southeast Polk Community School District.
- Numerous mentions of persons "of Ivy, Iowa" in blurbs whose full articles I haven't visited.
- --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 19:18, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Automatically notable as a former populated place. QuicoleJR ( talk) 15:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comment if the contention is that this used to be a named place (and that that is sufficient to have an article), I don't object to this being closed as "Keep". However, in that case, the article should be edited to make that clear.
Walt Yoder (
talk) 19:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- I can agree with that LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 17:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. If it is no longer a populated place, that can be reflected in the article via editing. Aoidh ( talk) 18:41, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
Ivy, Iowa
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Ivy, Iowa ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is not a named place in any meaningful sense. According to Google Maps, the location is part of Altoona, Iowa. The county website makes no mention of the place, but notes a few plats in the area with names such as Ivy Knolls. There is a church in the vicinity with "Ivy" in the name, but that church's website says it is in Altoona. Walt Yoder ( talk) 02:38, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iowa-related deletion discussions. Walt Yoder ( talk) 02:38, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- According to google maps it is actually its own location:
Ivy, Iowa on Google Maps
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 04:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- That's what I went off of. Also the fact it was on
List of unincorporated communities in Iowa
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 15:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be creating articles based on Google Maps and unsourced lists. Both trace their origins to the GNIS database which is known to be full of erroneous entries. –
dlthewave
☎ 16:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- The GNIS is a government site
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 19:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- which means that the data is not erroneous, as it is maintained by the government.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 01:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @
PaulGamerBoy360, this is dead wrong. See
WP:GNIS for errors in this database like
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susie, Washington. It regularly incorrectly classifies locations as populated places, and many populated places are not actually notable communities either.
Reywas92
Talk 13:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- acording to wikipedia gnis page it says that homesteads and ranches and farms are not populated places, bu they are as people live there.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 15:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, kid. The USGS has actual definitions that match actual usage (one family's house or ranch obviously shouldn't be classified the same as a full populated settlement) and a populated place is "Place or area with clustered or scattered buildings and a permanent human population (city, settlement, town, village). A populated place is usually not incorporated and by definition has no legal boundaries. However, a populated place may have a corresponding "civil" record, the legal boundaries of which may or may not coincide with the perceived populated place. Distinct from Census and Civil classes." A homestead is considered a locale, which is "Place at which there is or was human activity; it does not include populated places, mines, and dams (battlefield, crossroad, camp, farm, ghost town, landing, railroad siding, ranch, ruins, site, station, windmill)." The GNIS's feature classes are regularly inconsistent with more accurate feature classes used in National Gazetteers, and they still do not establish notability or provide useful information to base an article on alone, even if Google Maps draws their labels from it. Reywas92 Talk 18:55, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- acording to wikipedia gnis page it says that homesteads and ranches and farms are not populated places, bu they are as people live there.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 15:14, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @
PaulGamerBoy360, this is dead wrong. See
WP:GNIS for errors in this database like
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susie, Washington. It regularly incorrectly classifies locations as populated places, and many populated places are not actually notable communities either.
Reywas92
Talk 13:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- which means that the data is not erroneous, as it is maintained by the government.
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 01:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- The GNIS is a government site
PaulGamerBoy360 (
talk) 19:07, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
- You shouldn't be creating articles based on Google Maps and unsourced lists. Both trace their origins to the GNIS database which is known to be full of erroneous entries. –
dlthewave
☎ 16:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- That's what I went off of. Also the fact it was on
List of unincorporated communities in Iowa
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 15:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comment. We need to determine whether it was ever a named place. Once notable, always notable. This report from 1891 indicates that a woman who made prize-winning butter lived here. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 04:13, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 10:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Delete - "Named" does not automatically mean "notable". This place doesn't appear to be (or ever have been) officially recognized, and available sources are passing mentions rather than SIGCOV as required be GEOLAND. – dlthewave ☎ 15:40, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- By the way, I think it says it's in Altoona for postal reasonings. LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 15:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- Information on Ivy is low, but the part about it not being mentioned on the county website makes no sense because 1. It's not incorporated and 2. There isn't even a single other unincorporated community on that website either.
- If we can find more information on its founding then then it's a keep, if we can't find any information within a week or 2, then, It would be fine to delete it LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 16:04, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
- leaning keep I am finding traces of this which seem to indicate it once was a small town.
It had a post office in 1900, and a
1918 business directory lists a smithy and a general store. There's also a
state census from 1885 which lists it as a town. If you take a street view drive past on the old road, there's the remains of a couple of businesses and the church. Looking athte aerials, what happened was at at some point in the 1960s someone decided that the road needed to be widened to four lanes, and for whatever reason they decided to swerve slightly south at Ivy, literally obliterating the entire southern side of the town, where older aerials show maybe a dozen buildings. I have to imagine that searching in the right local paper would probably find something about this, but newspaper searching is not a strong point for me. But I'm pretty sure that Ivy was a town in the past of which a bare trace remains, largely in the name of the church.
Mangoe (
talk) 02:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
- I drove by it and actually into it the other day. Some houses and a church on a small road. As you found a source that it had a post office. But no buildings with the exception of the church looked like it could be a post office, making the southern part being removed a very reasonable thought and making it as small as it is now LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 23:27, 8 May 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 07:46, 14 May 2023 (UTC)- We've found more info, where it had a post office in 1900, was listed in the state census in 1885, and a business directory in 1918. It also had a southern part of the town that was removed sometime inbetween 1955 and 1972 when Iowa 163 was extended to a 2 lane highway
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 00:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- So i would say keep (I might be a bit biased due to me creating this page) LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 00:01, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- We've found more info, where it had a post office in 1900, was listed in the state census in 1885, and a business directory in 1918. It also had a southern part of the town that was removed sometime inbetween 1955 and 1972 when Iowa 163 was extended to a 2 lane highway
LuxembourgBoy42 (
talk) 00:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep, or leaning that way, or at least create mention in Altoona article and redirect to there. No signup required, you can access historic newspapers at Newspaper Archive (and maybe also at Newspapers.com?) via https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org/?next_url=/users/my_library/ (where you simply login to use a Wikipedia Library card).
- First hit on search of newspapers in Iowa with Keyword "Ivy, Iowa" that I check is: Homestead Newspaper Archives October 1, 1897 Page 6 (perhaps you have to be connected in for that link to work) has article "Horticulture at the Iowa State Fair" which includes at least two mentions, as home location for two persons who have seedlings or other submissions in the fair.
- Official notice given in Altoona Herald Newspaper Archives June 29, 1972 Page 10, for bids for construction of a Junior-Senior High School, 8325 N. E. University, Ivy, Iowa, for the Southeast Polk County Community School District, Ivy, Iowa. Proposals are due to the office of the secretary of the Board of Directors, 9070 N.E. University, Ivy, Iowa. The word "County" is included in the 1972 notice; this would appear to be what is now covered in Wikipedia as Southeast Polk Community School District.
- Numerous mentions of persons "of Ivy, Iowa" in blurbs whose full articles I haven't visited.
- --Doncram ( talk, contribs) 19:18, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
- Keep Automatically notable as a former populated place. QuicoleJR ( talk) 15:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- Comment if the contention is that this used to be a named place (and that that is sufficient to have an article), I don't object to this being closed as "Keep". However, in that case, the article should be edited to make that clear.
Walt Yoder (
talk) 19:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
- I can agree with that LuxembourgBoy42 ( talk) 17:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.