- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Hey man im josh ( talk) 18:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Ivor Chipkin
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- Ivor Chipkin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The individual appears to lack notability, with minimal coverage in reliable sources. Most of the available sources consist of passing mentions, author profiles, and some do not mention the subject at all. Despite efforts, no evidence supporting their notability under WP:NACADEMIC or WP:GNG criteria could be found. GSS 💬 18:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions. GSS 💬 18:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- strong Keep. Chipkin is a prolific writer on South African affairs with numerous articles in reliable publications. The impact of his work in South Africa on state capture cannot be ignored. Paul W ( talk) 18:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Co-publishing a report alongside other academics does not automatically confer notability. Since there is no significant coverage of this individual except for some passing mentions, if their only claim to notability is their involvement in the "Betrayal of the Promise Report," it should be considered for redirection to the
Zondo Commission article.
GSS
💬
18:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Your proposition contains a conceptual error. The report "The Betrayal of the Promise" is undeniably relevant; however, Ivor Chipkin was the co-author of a book that delves deeper into some of the themes discussed in the report, titled "Shadow State: The Politics of State Capture." This book holds significant relevance to discussions on the subject in South Africa, exploring topics not necessarily within the scope of debates that would later center around the Zondo Commission. Among these issues is the relationship between corruption, state capture, and racial categorizations, as discussed by Liz Stanley from the School of Political Science at the University of Edinburgh in a review of the book (she has no known connection to Ivor Chipkin or Mark Swilling). The Shadow State and Racialising Processes | Whites Writing Whiteness (ed.ac.uk)
- Moreover, Ivor is the author of other important reports on corruption, including those published by renowned think tanks as well as those he has directed (such as the Institute for Security Studies, one of the most esteemed in South Africa) Dangerous elites: protest, conflict and the future of South Africa - ISS Africa and authoring thematic book chapters published by Routledge, like "Governance, Resistance and the Post-Colonial State: Management and State Building," edited by Jonathan Murphy and Nimruji Jammulamadaka in 2017. Governance, Resistance and the Post-Colonial State | Management and St (taylorfrancis.com) Andrew Brza ( talk) 21:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ivor Chipkin and Mark Swilling were the principal authors of the pivotal report entitled "Betrayal of the Promise. They deliberately kept a low profile when the report was released, likely for security reasons. At the time of its release, the authors represented a consortium of individuals from various institutions.
- The report was a product of the collaborative efforts of the State Capacity Research Project, led by Mark Swilling as convener. The authorship included a distinguished group: Professor Haroon Bhorat of the Development Policy Research Unit at the University of Cape Town, Dr. Mbongiseni Buthelezi and Professor Ivor Chipkin of the Public Affairs Research Institute at the University of the Witwatersrand, Sikhulekile Duma and Dr. Camaren Peter of the Centre for Complexity and Governance, and the University of Cape Town. Camaren Peter of the Center for Complex Systems in Transition at Stellenbosch University, Lumkile Mondi of the Department of Economics at the University of the Witwatersrand, Professor Mzukisi Qobo of the South African Research Chair Program on African Diplomacy and Foreign Policy at the University of Johannesburg, and Professor Mark Swilling of Stellenbosch University. An independent journalist using the pseudonym Hannah Friedenstein also contributed.
- Ferial Haffajee's article on Pravin Gordhan's testimony to the Zondo Commission clearly acknowledges Mark Swilling and Ivor Chipkin as the main authors of the report. This fact is well known in South African public discourse.
- News24 Article on Pravin Gordhan's testimony
- For further reference, the following links provide access to the transcript of Minister Pravin Gordhan's testimony, in which he frequently cites the "Betrayal of the Promise" report:
- Transcript of Pravin Gordhan's testimony Andrew Brza ( talk) 11:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Co-publishing a report alongside other academics does not automatically confer notability. Since there is no significant coverage of this individual except for some passing mentions, if their only claim to notability is their involvement in the "Betrayal of the Promise Report," it should be considered for redirection to the
Zondo Commission article.
GSS
💬
18:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- My apologies, but your comment does not reflect reality. Chipkin is often cited in the South African context for his work on state capture. Forbes has an interesting article on his profile. His influential work has led to him being invited to write an op-ed in the New York Times. He is regularly asked to give interviews and write op-eds in South Africa. The International Anti-Corruption Academy (IACA) cited his work as relevant and innovative for proposing new ways to measure state capture in a report published in 2023. He was invited to join the board of the Belgrade Center for Security Policy to contribute to discussions on state capture in the Balkans. He has also been quoted as a source in Brazil's most widely circulated newspaper. If these are not indications of his significant contributions to the field, I find it hard to imagine what other evidence would be acceptable.
Andrew Brza (
talk)
18:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- FYI the Forbes article you are referring to is a contributor piece so there is no real editorial oversight.
GSS
💬
18:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- So you'll just ignore all the other points? Andrew Brza ( talk) 20:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- FYI the Forbes article you are referring to is a contributor piece so there is no real editorial oversight.
GSS
💬
18:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators, Authors, and Politics. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- There's a lot out there but I can't find any book reviews and I can't find anything which looks sufficiently secondary apart from this: [1] Not sure how to !vote here. SportingFlyer T· C 21:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Critic of the SA regime who may have made enemies. Good cites for his books. Xxanthippe ( talk) 22:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC).
- Comment. Here are some book reviews:
- Reviews of Shadow State: South African Historical Journal doi: 10.1080/02582473.2020.1774640; Transformation doi: 10.1353/trn.2019.0032; New Contree, hdl: 10394/34644, doi: 10.4102/nc.v83i0.53
- Reviews of Do South Africans Exist?: African Historical Review doi: 10.1080/17532520802589836; Africa Spectrum JSTOR 40175273; Safundi, doi: 10.1080/17533170903461532
- —
David Eppstein (
talk)
02:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- These are now all cited in the article. Paul W ( talk) 10:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep. Good cites for his three main works, and reviews for two of them, but only one is an authored and published book. The other reviewed work is an edited volume, which counts for much less, and I couldn't find reviews for "Betrayal of the Promise". Our source for his 2018 resignation from PARI has allegations of sexual harassment; I think we are correct in only reporting the resignation and not the allegations, as their investigation appears to have been inconclusive, but this is also a bit of a loose end in our sourcing. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
19:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- I did find a Mail & Guardian article by Shaun De Waal that described Betrayal as "an extraordinary collaboration of academics and experts ..." Added this. Paul W ( talk) 13:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Hey man im josh ( talk) 18:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
Ivor Chipkin
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Ivor Chipkin ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
The individual appears to lack notability, with minimal coverage in reliable sources. Most of the available sources consist of passing mentions, author profiles, and some do not mention the subject at all. Despite efforts, no evidence supporting their notability under WP:NACADEMIC or WP:GNG criteria could be found. GSS 💬 18:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions. GSS 💬 18:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- strong Keep. Chipkin is a prolific writer on South African affairs with numerous articles in reliable publications. The impact of his work in South Africa on state capture cannot be ignored. Paul W ( talk) 18:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Co-publishing a report alongside other academics does not automatically confer notability. Since there is no significant coverage of this individual except for some passing mentions, if their only claim to notability is their involvement in the "Betrayal of the Promise Report," it should be considered for redirection to the
Zondo Commission article.
GSS
💬
18:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Your proposition contains a conceptual error. The report "The Betrayal of the Promise" is undeniably relevant; however, Ivor Chipkin was the co-author of a book that delves deeper into some of the themes discussed in the report, titled "Shadow State: The Politics of State Capture." This book holds significant relevance to discussions on the subject in South Africa, exploring topics not necessarily within the scope of debates that would later center around the Zondo Commission. Among these issues is the relationship between corruption, state capture, and racial categorizations, as discussed by Liz Stanley from the School of Political Science at the University of Edinburgh in a review of the book (she has no known connection to Ivor Chipkin or Mark Swilling). The Shadow State and Racialising Processes | Whites Writing Whiteness (ed.ac.uk)
- Moreover, Ivor is the author of other important reports on corruption, including those published by renowned think tanks as well as those he has directed (such as the Institute for Security Studies, one of the most esteemed in South Africa) Dangerous elites: protest, conflict and the future of South Africa - ISS Africa and authoring thematic book chapters published by Routledge, like "Governance, Resistance and the Post-Colonial State: Management and State Building," edited by Jonathan Murphy and Nimruji Jammulamadaka in 2017. Governance, Resistance and the Post-Colonial State | Management and St (taylorfrancis.com) Andrew Brza ( talk) 21:04, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Ivor Chipkin and Mark Swilling were the principal authors of the pivotal report entitled "Betrayal of the Promise. They deliberately kept a low profile when the report was released, likely for security reasons. At the time of its release, the authors represented a consortium of individuals from various institutions.
- The report was a product of the collaborative efforts of the State Capacity Research Project, led by Mark Swilling as convener. The authorship included a distinguished group: Professor Haroon Bhorat of the Development Policy Research Unit at the University of Cape Town, Dr. Mbongiseni Buthelezi and Professor Ivor Chipkin of the Public Affairs Research Institute at the University of the Witwatersrand, Sikhulekile Duma and Dr. Camaren Peter of the Centre for Complexity and Governance, and the University of Cape Town. Camaren Peter of the Center for Complex Systems in Transition at Stellenbosch University, Lumkile Mondi of the Department of Economics at the University of the Witwatersrand, Professor Mzukisi Qobo of the South African Research Chair Program on African Diplomacy and Foreign Policy at the University of Johannesburg, and Professor Mark Swilling of Stellenbosch University. An independent journalist using the pseudonym Hannah Friedenstein also contributed.
- Ferial Haffajee's article on Pravin Gordhan's testimony to the Zondo Commission clearly acknowledges Mark Swilling and Ivor Chipkin as the main authors of the report. This fact is well known in South African public discourse.
- News24 Article on Pravin Gordhan's testimony
- For further reference, the following links provide access to the transcript of Minister Pravin Gordhan's testimony, in which he frequently cites the "Betrayal of the Promise" report:
- Transcript of Pravin Gordhan's testimony Andrew Brza ( talk) 11:48, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Co-publishing a report alongside other academics does not automatically confer notability. Since there is no significant coverage of this individual except for some passing mentions, if their only claim to notability is their involvement in the "Betrayal of the Promise Report," it should be considered for redirection to the
Zondo Commission article.
GSS
💬
18:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- My apologies, but your comment does not reflect reality. Chipkin is often cited in the South African context for his work on state capture. Forbes has an interesting article on his profile. His influential work has led to him being invited to write an op-ed in the New York Times. He is regularly asked to give interviews and write op-eds in South Africa. The International Anti-Corruption Academy (IACA) cited his work as relevant and innovative for proposing new ways to measure state capture in a report published in 2023. He was invited to join the board of the Belgrade Center for Security Policy to contribute to discussions on state capture in the Balkans. He has also been quoted as a source in Brazil's most widely circulated newspaper. If these are not indications of his significant contributions to the field, I find it hard to imagine what other evidence would be acceptable.
Andrew Brza (
talk)
18:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- FYI the Forbes article you are referring to is a contributor piece so there is no real editorial oversight.
GSS
💬
18:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- So you'll just ignore all the other points? Andrew Brza ( talk) 20:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- FYI the Forbes article you are referring to is a contributor piece so there is no real editorial oversight.
GSS
💬
18:39, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators, Authors, and Politics. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- There's a lot out there but I can't find any book reviews and I can't find anything which looks sufficiently secondary apart from this: [1] Not sure how to !vote here. SportingFlyer T· C 21:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Critic of the SA regime who may have made enemies. Good cites for his books. Xxanthippe ( talk) 22:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC).
- Comment. Here are some book reviews:
- Reviews of Shadow State: South African Historical Journal doi: 10.1080/02582473.2020.1774640; Transformation doi: 10.1353/trn.2019.0032; New Contree, hdl: 10394/34644, doi: 10.4102/nc.v83i0.53
- Reviews of Do South Africans Exist?: African Historical Review doi: 10.1080/17532520802589836; Africa Spectrum JSTOR 40175273; Safundi, doi: 10.1080/17533170903461532
- —
David Eppstein (
talk)
02:00, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- These are now all cited in the article. Paul W ( talk) 10:55, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- Weak keep. Good cites for his three main works, and reviews for two of them, but only one is an authored and published book. The other reviewed work is an edited volume, which counts for much less, and I couldn't find reviews for "Betrayal of the Promise". Our source for his 2018 resignation from PARI has allegations of sexual harassment; I think we are correct in only reporting the resignation and not the allegations, as their investigation appears to have been inconclusive, but this is also a bit of a loose end in our sourcing. —
David Eppstein (
talk)
19:26, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
- I did find a Mail & Guardian article by Shaun De Waal that described Betrayal as "an extraordinary collaboration of academics and experts ..." Added this. Paul W ( talk) 13:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.