- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 04:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Irish Car Rentals
- Irish Car Rentals ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article was CSD and refunded, other editors input required for consensus on this article. Do not count this nomination as a delete vote. I have included the discussion from the talk page.- McMatter ( talk)/( contrib) 01:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Following brought over from talk page
This article in my opinion was incorrectly CSD prior
WP:Corp states one source must be of national coverage which from what I can tell
Business & Leadership does,
[1]. There seems to be no evidence of COI editing from what I can see here, I do understand the orginal author has a history of this but I see nothing overly promotional with this article.-
McMatter (
talk)/(
contrib) 21:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Dear @
Mcmatter: It is indeed true that most of the article appears to have been written by a fellow who appears to have been paid
[2]
[3]
[4] to work on this very article.
- One concern of mine is promotionalism. The article is a one-sided puff piece about a car rental company. "Is one of the top 100 transport companies in Ireland". "Offers more than 5500 cars in Ireland". "More than 16 places". "11% increase". "More than 5,000 vehicles". "Surpassed 900,000 rental days". It mentions nothing bad about the company.
- My other concern is notability. We should use Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to prove that this small (100-employee) company is non-notable. Third World paid freelance spammers, paid piddly Third World wages by rich First World businesses, are powerful creatures. We can't fight them on millions of little articles. Regarding small companies, we should instead simply delete their articles. As I wrote in my bibliography annotations, we can say that the Irish business website "Business and Leadership" ( Alexa rank 237,125; Irish rank 2,121) is probably a publication of limited interest or circulation. That could get this article deleted.
- Thoughts?
- Kind regards, —
Unforgettableid (
talk) 21:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I understand your concerns, as for your stats for the website, we have to remember the audience for a company like this would be limited mostly to people in Ireland. So yes the site may not get many visits from the world but is ranked 2121 in Ireland. As I am guessing we probably won't see eye to eye on this matter I will put the article up for WP:AFD to get more editors involved and hopefully get a consensus, since 2 does not make a consensus. - McMatter ( talk)/( contrib) 01:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC) - McMatter ( talk)/( contrib) 01:02, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
End old conversation
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Everymorning talk 01:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the
list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. -
McMatter (
talk)/(
contrib) 01:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- As far as promotionalism goes, I did not made any non-original claim in the page. All the facts are stated with their citation. If I had come across any bad press, I would have included them also. If you have, please share with us, we all will be happy to include them too but you can't create some bad press on your own if there isn't any just for the sake of other side of coin! For notability, you can't judge every animal in the jungle for their ability to climb trees. I found the organization notable in terms of their operation in Ireland and that's why I went ahead to create it. And what's all the third world theory of yours about India? Seems like you have some personal agenda against users from Asia. If you had known your other deleted page Rahul Bhatia, is the owner of India's largest airlines, IndiGo and counts among world's 10 biggest low-cost carriers. Mr RD 01:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Deleteon the grounds of notability. Of the references presently found in the article, most that discuss 'Irish Car Rentals' are sources connected with the subject; they therefore lack independence and count for nought where notability is concerned. The remaining references that directly discuss the subject are the kind of corporate bio listings that show little, except that the entity exists. Several references discuss GoCar and there is a weak rationale to show that that entity may be notable. Equally, there is plenty of coverage for Europcar which can rightly be considered a notable organisation on the basis of its size and influence in the field of car rental. These notwithstanding, the relevant policy-based argument for deleting this article is that notability is not inherited, neither is it cascading. Simply because Europcar is notable and simply because there may be a weak case for the notability of GoCar does not make a case for the notability of Irish Car Rentals. Aditionally, any claim that they are notable based on the process of acquiring GoCar is analogous to being a WP:ONEEVENT falicy. I have carried out an Internet search for subject of the article and found almost no significant, independent coverage of them. Bellerophon talk to me 08:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC)- Keep now. Per Cunard's sources. The Sunday Times and Irish Times coverage, taken together, swing it for me. Bellerophon talk to me 09:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 1000 11:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep? — Using
this search function on the Irish Times website (Ireland's #1 newspaper) lists several articles discussing this company. Doesn't this pass the
WP:N notability test? The
Barryjjoyce (
talk) 08:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- That depends on how much coverage those articles give to the subject, and as its all behind a paywall, I really can't say. There seem to be at least two links in that first page of results that feature the subject in the title, so perhaps there is a reasonable level of coverage in the archives of the Irish Times; however, it's still all from the same source and it appears all the hits come from the online version rather than the print version; which does not necessarily diminish their value, but it's worthy of consideration. Bellerophon talk to me 17:37, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Delete per above - Searching "Irish Car Rentals" brings everything up unrelated to this company .... So I've not been able to find anything thus failing GNG. – Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 12:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
- Coffey, Aine (2010-05-16).
"Thrifty owners agree to bail out rival ICR".
The Sunday Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02.
The article notes:
COLM MENTON and Eugene O'Reilly of Thrifty Car Rentals will inject at least *1.23m into Irish Car Rentals to take the company out of examinership and meet payments to creditors.
They have committed to provide up to a further *1m in working capital over 12 months, if necessary, under a scheme that will be voted on by creditors tomorrow.
The deficit will be *10.7m under the scheme devised by the examiner, Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, compared with *32.5m in the event of a winding-up.
Unsecured creditors of Irish Car Rentals will get 7.5c in the euro.
Irish Car Rentals, which holds the franchises for Europcar, Alamo and National Car Rental, is the biggest of seven companies in the ICR Motor Group, which went into examinership in March.
- Deegan, Gordon (2013-03-01).
"Irish Car Rentals Show Profit Rise".
The Irish Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02 – via
HighBeam Research.
{{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter|subscription=ignored (|url-access=suggested) ( help)The article notes:
Pre-tax profits at car hire firm Irish Car Rentals increased by 42% last year to [euro]1.92 million, new figures show.
Accounts just filed with the Companies Office show that Irish Car Rentals Ltd recorded the increase in profits after revenues decreased by 22 per cent from [euro]23 million to [euro]18 million in the 12 months to the end of August 31st last.
However, the prior period for was 15 months.
The returns show that the numbers employed by the firm last year increased from 91 to 102.
- Lynch, Suzanne (2012-07-02).
"Irish Car Rentals Returns to Profit".
The Irish Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02 – via
HighBeam Research.
{{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter|subscription=ignored (|url-access=suggested) ( help)The article notes:
CAR-HIRE COMPANY Irish Car Rentals swung back into the black last year, following its successful exit from examinership in mid-2010.
Accounts posted at the Companies Registration Office for the Europcar, Alamo and National car rental franchise holder show the company had an operating profit of [euro]2.5 million for the 15- month period to the end of August 2011. This compares with an operating loss of [euro]3.2 million in the 19- month period to the end of May 2010.
- McCaffrey, Una (2011-03-12).
"Car rental firm expects to move back into profit".
The Irish Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02 – via
HighBeam Research.
{{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter|subscription=ignored (|url-access=suggested) ( help)The article notes:
IRISH CAR Rentals (ICR) is expected to move into profit in 2011 after recording a [euro]3.4 million operating loss for the 19-month period before it exited examinership last year.
Accounts just posted to the Companies Office for the Europcar, Alamo and National Car Rental franchise-holder show the result came on turnover of [euro]25.2 million.
For the 12 months to the end of November, 2008, the firm posted a loss of [euro]12.6 million on turnover of [euro]15.5 million.
The car hire company was placed in examinership in February last year and emerged in May after securing investment from the owners of the Thrifty car rental franchise.
Irish Car Rentals carried forward a loss of almost [euro]7 million from last May but is on track to record a profit for this year.
- Coffey, Aine (2010-05-16).
"Thrifty owners agree to bail out rival ICR".
The Sunday Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. ~ Amatulić ( talk) 04:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Irish Car Rentals
- Irish Car Rentals ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Article was CSD and refunded, other editors input required for consensus on this article. Do not count this nomination as a delete vote. I have included the discussion from the talk page.- McMatter ( talk)/( contrib) 01:08, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Following brought over from talk page
This article in my opinion was incorrectly CSD prior
WP:Corp states one source must be of national coverage which from what I can tell
Business & Leadership does,
[1]. There seems to be no evidence of COI editing from what I can see here, I do understand the orginal author has a history of this but I see nothing overly promotional with this article.-
McMatter (
talk)/(
contrib) 21:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- Dear @
Mcmatter: It is indeed true that most of the article appears to have been written by a fellow who appears to have been paid
[2]
[3]
[4] to work on this very article.
- One concern of mine is promotionalism. The article is a one-sided puff piece about a car rental company. "Is one of the top 100 transport companies in Ireland". "Offers more than 5500 cars in Ireland". "More than 16 places". "11% increase". "More than 5,000 vehicles". "Surpassed 900,000 rental days". It mentions nothing bad about the company.
- My other concern is notability. We should use Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to prove that this small (100-employee) company is non-notable. Third World paid freelance spammers, paid piddly Third World wages by rich First World businesses, are powerful creatures. We can't fight them on millions of little articles. Regarding small companies, we should instead simply delete their articles. As I wrote in my bibliography annotations, we can say that the Irish business website "Business and Leadership" ( Alexa rank 237,125; Irish rank 2,121) is probably a publication of limited interest or circulation. That could get this article deleted.
- Thoughts?
- Kind regards, —
Unforgettableid (
talk) 21:15, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
- I understand your concerns, as for your stats for the website, we have to remember the audience for a company like this would be limited mostly to people in Ireland. So yes the site may not get many visits from the world but is ranked 2121 in Ireland. As I am guessing we probably won't see eye to eye on this matter I will put the article up for WP:AFD to get more editors involved and hopefully get a consensus, since 2 does not make a consensus. - McMatter ( talk)/( contrib) 01:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC) - McMatter ( talk)/( contrib) 01:02, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
End old conversation
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Everymorning talk 01:27, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the
list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. -
McMatter (
talk)/(
contrib) 01:38, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- As far as promotionalism goes, I did not made any non-original claim in the page. All the facts are stated with their citation. If I had come across any bad press, I would have included them also. If you have, please share with us, we all will be happy to include them too but you can't create some bad press on your own if there isn't any just for the sake of other side of coin! For notability, you can't judge every animal in the jungle for their ability to climb trees. I found the organization notable in terms of their operation in Ireland and that's why I went ahead to create it. And what's all the third world theory of yours about India? Seems like you have some personal agenda against users from Asia. If you had known your other deleted page Rahul Bhatia, is the owner of India's largest airlines, IndiGo and counts among world's 10 biggest low-cost carriers. Mr RD 01:44, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
Deleteon the grounds of notability. Of the references presently found in the article, most that discuss 'Irish Car Rentals' are sources connected with the subject; they therefore lack independence and count for nought where notability is concerned. The remaining references that directly discuss the subject are the kind of corporate bio listings that show little, except that the entity exists. Several references discuss GoCar and there is a weak rationale to show that that entity may be notable. Equally, there is plenty of coverage for Europcar which can rightly be considered a notable organisation on the basis of its size and influence in the field of car rental. These notwithstanding, the relevant policy-based argument for deleting this article is that notability is not inherited, neither is it cascading. Simply because Europcar is notable and simply because there may be a weak case for the notability of GoCar does not make a case for the notability of Irish Car Rentals. Aditionally, any claim that they are notable based on the process of acquiring GoCar is analogous to being a WP:ONEEVENT falicy. I have carried out an Internet search for subject of the article and found almost no significant, independent coverage of them. Bellerophon talk to me 08:01, 24 December 2014 (UTC)- Keep now. Per Cunard's sources. The Sunday Times and Irish Times coverage, taken together, swing it for me. Bellerophon talk to me 09:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica 1000 11:25, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
- Keep? — Using
this search function on the Irish Times website (Ireland's #1 newspaper) lists several articles discussing this company. Doesn't this pass the
WP:N notability test? The
Barryjjoyce (
talk) 08:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
- That depends on how much coverage those articles give to the subject, and as its all behind a paywall, I really can't say. There seem to be at least two links in that first page of results that feature the subject in the title, so perhaps there is a reasonable level of coverage in the archives of the Irish Times; however, it's still all from the same source and it appears all the hits come from the online version rather than the print version; which does not necessarily diminish their value, but it's worthy of consideration. Bellerophon talk to me 17:37, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Delete per above - Searching "Irish Car Rentals" brings everything up unrelated to this company .... So I've not been able to find anything thus failing GNG. – Davey2010 Merry Xmas / Happy New Year 12:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
- Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent
reliable sources.
- Coffey, Aine (2010-05-16).
"Thrifty owners agree to bail out rival ICR".
The Sunday Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02.
The article notes:
COLM MENTON and Eugene O'Reilly of Thrifty Car Rentals will inject at least *1.23m into Irish Car Rentals to take the company out of examinership and meet payments to creditors.
They have committed to provide up to a further *1m in working capital over 12 months, if necessary, under a scheme that will be voted on by creditors tomorrow.
The deficit will be *10.7m under the scheme devised by the examiner, Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, compared with *32.5m in the event of a winding-up.
Unsecured creditors of Irish Car Rentals will get 7.5c in the euro.
Irish Car Rentals, which holds the franchises for Europcar, Alamo and National Car Rental, is the biggest of seven companies in the ICR Motor Group, which went into examinership in March.
- Deegan, Gordon (2013-03-01).
"Irish Car Rentals Show Profit Rise".
The Irish Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02 – via
HighBeam Research.
{{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter|subscription=ignored (|url-access=suggested) ( help)The article notes:
Pre-tax profits at car hire firm Irish Car Rentals increased by 42% last year to [euro]1.92 million, new figures show.
Accounts just filed with the Companies Office show that Irish Car Rentals Ltd recorded the increase in profits after revenues decreased by 22 per cent from [euro]23 million to [euro]18 million in the 12 months to the end of August 31st last.
However, the prior period for was 15 months.
The returns show that the numbers employed by the firm last year increased from 91 to 102.
- Lynch, Suzanne (2012-07-02).
"Irish Car Rentals Returns to Profit".
The Irish Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02 – via
HighBeam Research.
{{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter|subscription=ignored (|url-access=suggested) ( help)The article notes:
CAR-HIRE COMPANY Irish Car Rentals swung back into the black last year, following its successful exit from examinership in mid-2010.
Accounts posted at the Companies Registration Office for the Europcar, Alamo and National car rental franchise holder show the company had an operating profit of [euro]2.5 million for the 15- month period to the end of August 2011. This compares with an operating loss of [euro]3.2 million in the 19- month period to the end of May 2010.
- McCaffrey, Una (2011-03-12).
"Car rental firm expects to move back into profit".
The Irish Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02 – via
HighBeam Research.
{{ cite news}}: Unknown parameter|subscription=ignored (|url-access=suggested) ( help)The article notes:
IRISH CAR Rentals (ICR) is expected to move into profit in 2011 after recording a [euro]3.4 million operating loss for the 19-month period before it exited examinership last year.
Accounts just posted to the Companies Office for the Europcar, Alamo and National Car Rental franchise-holder show the result came on turnover of [euro]25.2 million.
For the 12 months to the end of November, 2008, the firm posted a loss of [euro]12.6 million on turnover of [euro]15.5 million.
The car hire company was placed in examinership in February last year and emerged in May after securing investment from the owners of the Thrifty car rental franchise.
Irish Car Rentals carried forward a loss of almost [euro]7 million from last May but is on track to record a profit for this year.
- Coffey, Aine (2010-05-16).
"Thrifty owners agree to bail out rival ICR".
The Sunday Times. Archived from
the original on 2015-01-02. Retrieved 2015-01-02.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.