- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. After being relisted twice there is no consensus to delete. I don't see any value in relisting a third time. (non-admin closure) Dusti *Let's talk!* 00:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
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- Irène Souka ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not notable; fails WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. WP:POLITICIAN does not apply as Souka's position was not one of a politician in the strict sense, but even if it did, it's explicitly a secondary criterion. Souka is occasionally mentioned in passing by Politico (see this collection of articles). None of those mentions constitute the significant coverage required to establish notability. Of the sources currently in the article, only source 1 is significant coverage. It's a good source in terms of establishing notability, but it's just one. Source 2 doesn't even mention her. This is not the coverage in multiple sources required to establish notability. Although Souka was every now and then noted in passing, she only received individual press attention during one event (note WP:BIO1E), and only from one news outlet. Results from WP:BEFORE corroborate this picture of an individual noted in passing but never in covered in detail. See, for example, 1, 2, 3. There was also this article, but this is not a reliable source (cf. WP:DAILYEXPRESS). Actualcpscm ( talk) 20:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Greece. Actualcpscm ( talk) 20:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Hey man im josh ( talk) 20:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:BASIC and
WP:HEY. Notable as one of the few female directors-general in the European Commission, which means she is discussed in multiple academic publications, such as
[1] and
[2], in addition to the Politico coverage (multiple in-depth articles demonstrating
WP:SUSTAINED coverage over time) and New York Times (mention) with regard to her role in the high-profile Selmayr affair and two years later, the drama around her retirement. Note that WP:BASIC specifies that
If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability
, and thanks to multiple controversies, this bio of a European civil servant manages to get over the line based on English sources; additional sources may be available in Greek, French, and with variations in the spelling of her name (e.g. Eirini Souka). Cielquiparle ( talk) 07:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC) - Keep per above. Meets basic notability criteria for politicians, especially as the director general of the Directorate-General for Human Resources and Security. Batmanthe8th ( talk) 16:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:HEY. Passes WP:GNG. Sal2100 ( talk) 21:26, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: To the best of my knowledge, it's not clearly established that DGs of the EC are inherently notable. Discussion in academic publications is, as far as I could tell, in passing and not significant coverage. Again, discussion of her with regards to the Selmayr controversy is in passing. I'd also like to note that publications from the EC and its press releases are not appropriate for establishing notability, since the EC was her employer and thus not an independent source. I agree that the article has been improved significantly since nomination, but the issue I originally highlighted remains: She is discussed in-depth only in one publication and otherwise mentioned in passing. Yes, multiple sources can be combined to establish notability, but I just don't see the threshold of
WP:GNG being met here.
Actualcpscm (
talk)
10:31, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- I fundamentally disagree with your characterisation of what constitutes "in passing" coverage. Notable people do notable things, and
WP:BASIC fully allows us to count coverage toward notability even when the PERSON isn't the main focus of the article.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
10:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- From WP:BASIC (footnote 7):
Non-triviality is a measure of the depth of content of a published work, and how far removed that content is from a simple directory entry or a mention in passing ("John Smith at Big Company said..." or "Mary Jones was hired by My University") that does not discuss the subject in detail.
Discussion in detail goes beyond the mentions of Souka that I have described as "in passing". Actualcpscm ( talk) 11:16, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- From WP:BASIC (footnote 7):
- I fundamentally disagree with your characterisation of what constitutes "in passing" coverage. Notable people do notable things, and
WP:BASIC fully allows us to count coverage toward notability even when the PERSON isn't the main focus of the article.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
10:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is very little discussion about the amount of biographical source material available about this particular individual. Specific discussion about this would be very helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment to
Seraphimblade. It is uncontroversial that Irène Souka has multiple in-depth articles covering various aspects of her tenure as Director General in Politico, offering
WP:SUSTAINED coverage over time, most notably
"Don't cry for Commission's HR chief" (2020 article completely focused on Irene Souka) and the
2016 "Brussels is for lovers: These influential people have formed their own European Unions", which gives Irene Souka and her husband top billing as an EU "power couple" (they were two Director Generals who were married, which was unusual); in addition, there is
coverage about the "bombshell email" Souka sent to thousands of people in her department a few days before retiring. To demonstrate notability, however, we need to show that other publications have also covered Souka – and I would argue that the
academic publication Pittsburgh Papers on the European Union, actually does discuss the impact of the HR policy reforms she implemented as DG in detail and is substantively more than just a "passing mention" – in fact, it's exactly the type of reference we would hope to see about a high-level policymaker (asking what impact did they actually have) – and
WP:BASIC allows us to stitch together content from multiple sources. (And as a side note, while I'm inclined to discount (for purposes of establishing notability) Jean Quatremer's analysis as an investigative journalist about Souka's role in the Selmayr affair, which he published in publications such as '
The Spectator and
Libération.fr, the fact that
The New York Times largely validated his version of events (and mentioned Souka in that context) is definitely significant.)
Cielquiparle (
talk)
05:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- The academic publication you refer to mentions Souka by name once. It does provide an in-depth analysis of HR policy, some of which was hers, but this is a far cry from an in-depth discussion of Souka. (Not that this changes things much, but note that the policies discussed in that section are also not attributed to Souka alone, but to her and Maroš Šefčovič together.)
- Souka's role in the Selmary affair is at most secondary, at least according to the sources you mention. Quatremer's analysis calls Souka "an essential cog in the appointment of the Secretary General" (Google's translation is better than my own would be) in the only sentence that could be construed as more than a passing mention. This is hardly in-depth analysis of her or her role in the affair. I would even argue that the use of the term "rouage" here strongly implies a passively bureaucratic role rather than an active one, and this analysis is only provided to illustrate Selmayr's loyalty. The text mentions her twice by name elswehere; first a quote from a "Eurocrat" and then in a list of people who attended a critical meeting. The NYT article does not further elaborate on Souka or her involvement.
- Looking at all this coverage of the Selmayr affair, what might be appropriate would be a separate article for that event, since Selmayr himself is also notable independently of the appointment affair. Anything relevant from the Souka article could be merged into that. What do you think @
Cielquiparle?
Actualcpscm (
talk)
09:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ Actualcpscm We've both now exceeded two comments each, so I think we should step aside per WP:BLUDGEON and not flood this discussion with walls of text that discourage further participation, or waste time. (There is more important work elsewhere in the encyclopedia.) We can agree to disagree and let other people make up their own minds. Cielquiparle ( talk) 10:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - per WP:BASIC and WP:HEY - the article includes substantial biographical coverage of this particular individual's 40-year career, and their education, which are relevant to their notability, and their personal life is also well-sourced. Beccaynr ( talk) 03:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. As of now, I see only two possible closures, Keep or No consensus as there is currently no support for Deletion of this article other than the nominator.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - from my view, when the subject is noted in an academic analysis (p. 68, with some biographical and career detail) about women's positional leadership, this is not a passing mention, and instead highlights her with substantial secondary context. I also think coverage of her HR work is coverage about her, similar to other BLP subjects with careers - this issue is sometimes discussed at AfD (e.g. Dawn Prince-Hughes AfD); and when she is described as e.g. "an essential cog," this seems to be further secondary support for her notability, in addition to what appears to be far more than passing-mention or trivial coverage of her in Politico over time: 2009 (noting the start of her EC tenure and an incident described as "a baptism of fire"), 2016 (includes coverage of her as part of the "highest echelon of Commission officialdom" and one of "several of Brussels’ most notable political power couples"), 2020 (in-depth reporting on her career). Beccaynr ( talk) 19:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. After being relisted twice there is no consensus to delete. I don't see any value in relisting a third time. (non-admin closure) Dusti *Let's talk!* 00:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Irène Souka ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not notable; fails WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. WP:POLITICIAN does not apply as Souka's position was not one of a politician in the strict sense, but even if it did, it's explicitly a secondary criterion. Souka is occasionally mentioned in passing by Politico (see this collection of articles). None of those mentions constitute the significant coverage required to establish notability. Of the sources currently in the article, only source 1 is significant coverage. It's a good source in terms of establishing notability, but it's just one. Source 2 doesn't even mention her. This is not the coverage in multiple sources required to establish notability. Although Souka was every now and then noted in passing, she only received individual press attention during one event (note WP:BIO1E), and only from one news outlet. Results from WP:BEFORE corroborate this picture of an individual noted in passing but never in covered in detail. See, for example, 1, 2, 3. There was also this article, but this is not a reliable source (cf. WP:DAILYEXPRESS). Actualcpscm ( talk) 20:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and Greece. Actualcpscm ( talk) 20:29, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Hey man im josh ( talk) 20:57, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per
WP:BASIC and
WP:HEY. Notable as one of the few female directors-general in the European Commission, which means she is discussed in multiple academic publications, such as
[1] and
[2], in addition to the Politico coverage (multiple in-depth articles demonstrating
WP:SUSTAINED coverage over time) and New York Times (mention) with regard to her role in the high-profile Selmayr affair and two years later, the drama around her retirement. Note that WP:BASIC specifies that
If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability
, and thanks to multiple controversies, this bio of a European civil servant manages to get over the line based on English sources; additional sources may be available in Greek, French, and with variations in the spelling of her name (e.g. Eirini Souka). Cielquiparle ( talk) 07:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC) - Keep per above. Meets basic notability criteria for politicians, especially as the director general of the Directorate-General for Human Resources and Security. Batmanthe8th ( talk) 16:23, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:HEY. Passes WP:GNG. Sal2100 ( talk) 21:26, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: To the best of my knowledge, it's not clearly established that DGs of the EC are inherently notable. Discussion in academic publications is, as far as I could tell, in passing and not significant coverage. Again, discussion of her with regards to the Selmayr controversy is in passing. I'd also like to note that publications from the EC and its press releases are not appropriate for establishing notability, since the EC was her employer and thus not an independent source. I agree that the article has been improved significantly since nomination, but the issue I originally highlighted remains: She is discussed in-depth only in one publication and otherwise mentioned in passing. Yes, multiple sources can be combined to establish notability, but I just don't see the threshold of
WP:GNG being met here.
Actualcpscm (
talk)
10:31, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- I fundamentally disagree with your characterisation of what constitutes "in passing" coverage. Notable people do notable things, and
WP:BASIC fully allows us to count coverage toward notability even when the PERSON isn't the main focus of the article.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
10:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- From WP:BASIC (footnote 7):
Non-triviality is a measure of the depth of content of a published work, and how far removed that content is from a simple directory entry or a mention in passing ("John Smith at Big Company said..." or "Mary Jones was hired by My University") that does not discuss the subject in detail.
Discussion in detail goes beyond the mentions of Souka that I have described as "in passing". Actualcpscm ( talk) 11:16, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- From WP:BASIC (footnote 7):
- I fundamentally disagree with your characterisation of what constitutes "in passing" coverage. Notable people do notable things, and
WP:BASIC fully allows us to count coverage toward notability even when the PERSON isn't the main focus of the article.
Cielquiparle (
talk)
10:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There is very little discussion about the amount of biographical source material available about this particular individual. Specific discussion about this would be very helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment to
Seraphimblade. It is uncontroversial that Irène Souka has multiple in-depth articles covering various aspects of her tenure as Director General in Politico, offering
WP:SUSTAINED coverage over time, most notably
"Don't cry for Commission's HR chief" (2020 article completely focused on Irene Souka) and the
2016 "Brussels is for lovers: These influential people have formed their own European Unions", which gives Irene Souka and her husband top billing as an EU "power couple" (they were two Director Generals who were married, which was unusual); in addition, there is
coverage about the "bombshell email" Souka sent to thousands of people in her department a few days before retiring. To demonstrate notability, however, we need to show that other publications have also covered Souka – and I would argue that the
academic publication Pittsburgh Papers on the European Union, actually does discuss the impact of the HR policy reforms she implemented as DG in detail and is substantively more than just a "passing mention" – in fact, it's exactly the type of reference we would hope to see about a high-level policymaker (asking what impact did they actually have) – and
WP:BASIC allows us to stitch together content from multiple sources. (And as a side note, while I'm inclined to discount (for purposes of establishing notability) Jean Quatremer's analysis as an investigative journalist about Souka's role in the Selmayr affair, which he published in publications such as '
The Spectator and
Libération.fr, the fact that
The New York Times largely validated his version of events (and mentioned Souka in that context) is definitely significant.)
Cielquiparle (
talk)
05:07, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- The academic publication you refer to mentions Souka by name once. It does provide an in-depth analysis of HR policy, some of which was hers, but this is a far cry from an in-depth discussion of Souka. (Not that this changes things much, but note that the policies discussed in that section are also not attributed to Souka alone, but to her and Maroš Šefčovič together.)
- Souka's role in the Selmary affair is at most secondary, at least according to the sources you mention. Quatremer's analysis calls Souka "an essential cog in the appointment of the Secretary General" (Google's translation is better than my own would be) in the only sentence that could be construed as more than a passing mention. This is hardly in-depth analysis of her or her role in the affair. I would even argue that the use of the term "rouage" here strongly implies a passively bureaucratic role rather than an active one, and this analysis is only provided to illustrate Selmayr's loyalty. The text mentions her twice by name elswehere; first a quote from a "Eurocrat" and then in a list of people who attended a critical meeting. The NYT article does not further elaborate on Souka or her involvement.
- Looking at all this coverage of the Selmayr affair, what might be appropriate would be a separate article for that event, since Selmayr himself is also notable independently of the appointment affair. Anything relevant from the Souka article could be merged into that. What do you think @
Cielquiparle?
Actualcpscm (
talk)
09:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- @ Actualcpscm We've both now exceeded two comments each, so I think we should step aside per WP:BLUDGEON and not flood this discussion with walls of text that discourage further participation, or waste time. (There is more important work elsewhere in the encyclopedia.) We can agree to disagree and let other people make up their own minds. Cielquiparle ( talk) 10:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Keep - per WP:BASIC and WP:HEY - the article includes substantial biographical coverage of this particular individual's 40-year career, and their education, which are relevant to their notability, and their personal life is also well-sourced. Beccaynr ( talk) 03:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. As of now, I see only two possible closures, Keep or No consensus as there is currently no support for Deletion of this article other than the nominator.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:45, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - from my view, when the subject is noted in an academic analysis (p. 68, with some biographical and career detail) about women's positional leadership, this is not a passing mention, and instead highlights her with substantial secondary context. I also think coverage of her HR work is coverage about her, similar to other BLP subjects with careers - this issue is sometimes discussed at AfD (e.g. Dawn Prince-Hughes AfD); and when she is described as e.g. "an essential cog," this seems to be further secondary support for her notability, in addition to what appears to be far more than passing-mention or trivial coverage of her in Politico over time: 2009 (noting the start of her EC tenure and an incident described as "a baptism of fire"), 2016 (includes coverage of her as part of the "highest echelon of Commission officialdom" and one of "several of Brussels’ most notable political power couples"), 2020 (in-depth reporting on her career). Beccaynr ( talk) 19:44, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.