- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Nomination withdrawn. ( non-admin closure) Scolaire ( talk) 10:07, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Institut Nova Història ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Attack page, which
begins, The Institut Nova Història...is a cultural foundation of Barcelona...dedicated to the pseudohistory and historical revisionism, with clear political intentions.
According to the talk page, it has been translated from Spanish and Catalan Wikipedias. It appears to consist entirely of
original research, citing a multitude of primary sources, then presenting the authors' own (extremely negative) gloss.
Scolaire (
talk)
18:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Keep and continue work on the article. They are democratically elected so we have to engage them accordingly, otherwise it results in more ignorance and suffering. Wakari07 ( talk) 21:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
( I translated the article. Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Institut_Nova_Història Here is a discussion that explains that the subject is treated, and how it is involved in the social and political aspect of Catalonia.
I am going to tell you an experience, I knew and I am involved by twitter in Spanish politics since 2 months ago, since I am Venezuelan, I live in Venezuela and i cared about Venezuela, however I almost do not twit, I only retwits things, I do not even look for twits of independent Catalans, but of Unionist Catalans since the start, and despite that on February 2, 2018 attacked me a typical Catalan independentist trying to convince a Venezuelan guy like me of these theories that he believes faithfully, with a lot of messages, and giving me that information and other pages that are not from the institute but others (He gave me two pages giving validity and propagating these things: ' Fundació d'Estudis Històrics de Catalunya' and ' Cercle Català d'Història'). Here are the tweets Obviously I did not convince myself but it made me understand how many Catalans think and about what was the famous Institute Nova History and the Cucurull of which many people speak. In Catalonia, it is quite common that they talk about the subject they have mentioned since i know of Catalan politics-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 21:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
"I ask you to take pictures of these tweets" as they erase things at once when something fails-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 22:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I know that this opinion does not go with wikipedia and sorry for that but only for them to see that you have to take evidence of these things, but I personally know that they are experts in manipulating public opinion, they always go from supporters of malcom x, anti-fascists, etc. in favor of everything that loves most of the world, then they send really explosive messages, leaders and university professors, for example, comparing Spaniards descendents of Catalonia with the Maghrebies of France, for example, which they both are " followers of violence and hatred in the host country", or of people doing bad things in the street, then that is bad sight and immediately they try to leave no trace of it. I only say that it does that things like this one do not know and other things that they like them yes. I know that I have already gone politically with this last message but my intention is not this )-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 22:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ah... translated from another language version of WP... those always are difficult. Before we can determine whether to keep or delete, we need someone who can assess the sources... to determine which are reliable, independent, and secondary. Note that the Spanish and Catalan versions of WP may not have the same rules as the English version. It may be that we can keep this after a major rewrite... it may be that we cannot. Blueboar ( talk) 22:54, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I think the sources are reliable but you have to keep in mind what I said, and I tried to put direct links of TV3 and Radio Catalunya media and appear me on the Catalan-speaking Catalan independentists's comments putting links that would take to recent interviews of members that made conferences in those main tvs and radios of Catalonia recently, I click and take me to the offcial tv3 page but the file was deleted. Also in other websites, this time of Spanish newspapers today they include a photo of the leaders of this institution talking on TV3. I do not know if that is because as they have all the rights reserved for the interviews they managed to erase them at this time of the internationalization of the process. I am commenting this time only on the sources related to the interviews in the mass media of Catalan television Although I find on youtube enough interviews of these members in the same medias talking this one something recent but mostly that are seen right now are of 20 years ago; I also found enough videos on YouTube when these members talk about all this at the Catalan National Assembly as they are current secretariats of the Catalan National Assembly, and all important members of Catalan independence, some creating anthem for this, organizing all kinds of things, appearing alongside main leaders-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 23:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep even if the article has a non-neutral point of view on the topic, the topic is suitable to keep. It is not so negative as an attack, but is a negative point of view expressed in our author's voice. Some rewriting may serve to balance it. Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 00:01, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep – The institute's ideas seem indeed loony, but that's no reason to delete a well-sourced article about a notable subject. If there's a problem with the article's POV of the institute, it can be dealt with there. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 01:44, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep and improve where needed .... WP:Does deletion help?.-- Moxy ( talk) 03:11, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - I objected here to the links to this article that had been added in the "See also" section in other articles such as the one on Shakespeare, El Cid, etc. but not to the article itself. References should be checked, maybe some could be found in English, but the institution does exist and it does promote these theories. As long as the info is verifiable, the article should remain. Maragm ( talk) 05:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC) Found two refs in English from reputable sources in case anyone wants to add them to the article for referencing. This one and this other one. In this last one, p. 6 of the PDF, it mentions not just Columbus but other historical figures who the Institut also claim are Catalan. Maragm ( talk) 06:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. From even a cursory check this institute is notable - multiple google news and book hits. I do share nom's concerns regarding POV - however they are best addressed by editing the article - if need be by stubbing it down to a short neutral stub. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:44, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Nomination withdrawn. ( non-admin closure) Scolaire ( talk) 10:07, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Institut Nova Història ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Attack page, which
begins, The Institut Nova Història...is a cultural foundation of Barcelona...dedicated to the pseudohistory and historical revisionism, with clear political intentions.
According to the talk page, it has been translated from Spanish and Catalan Wikipedias. It appears to consist entirely of
original research, citing a multitude of primary sources, then presenting the authors' own (extremely negative) gloss.
Scolaire (
talk)
18:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Scolaire ( talk) 18:15, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Keep and continue work on the article. They are democratically elected so we have to engage them accordingly, otherwise it results in more ignorance and suffering. Wakari07 ( talk) 21:16, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
( I translated the article. Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Institut_Nova_Història Here is a discussion that explains that the subject is treated, and how it is involved in the social and political aspect of Catalonia.
I am going to tell you an experience, I knew and I am involved by twitter in Spanish politics since 2 months ago, since I am Venezuelan, I live in Venezuela and i cared about Venezuela, however I almost do not twit, I only retwits things, I do not even look for twits of independent Catalans, but of Unionist Catalans since the start, and despite that on February 2, 2018 attacked me a typical Catalan independentist trying to convince a Venezuelan guy like me of these theories that he believes faithfully, with a lot of messages, and giving me that information and other pages that are not from the institute but others (He gave me two pages giving validity and propagating these things: ' Fundació d'Estudis Històrics de Catalunya' and ' Cercle Català d'Història'). Here are the tweets Obviously I did not convince myself but it made me understand how many Catalans think and about what was the famous Institute Nova History and the Cucurull of which many people speak. In Catalonia, it is quite common that they talk about the subject they have mentioned since i know of Catalan politics-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 21:46, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
"I ask you to take pictures of these tweets" as they erase things at once when something fails-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 22:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I know that this opinion does not go with wikipedia and sorry for that but only for them to see that you have to take evidence of these things, but I personally know that they are experts in manipulating public opinion, they always go from supporters of malcom x, anti-fascists, etc. in favor of everything that loves most of the world, then they send really explosive messages, leaders and university professors, for example, comparing Spaniards descendents of Catalonia with the Maghrebies of France, for example, which they both are " followers of violence and hatred in the host country", or of people doing bad things in the street, then that is bad sight and immediately they try to leave no trace of it. I only say that it does that things like this one do not know and other things that they like them yes. I know that I have already gone politically with this last message but my intention is not this )-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 22:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ah... translated from another language version of WP... those always are difficult. Before we can determine whether to keep or delete, we need someone who can assess the sources... to determine which are reliable, independent, and secondary. Note that the Spanish and Catalan versions of WP may not have the same rules as the English version. It may be that we can keep this after a major rewrite... it may be that we cannot. Blueboar ( talk) 22:54, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
I think the sources are reliable but you have to keep in mind what I said, and I tried to put direct links of TV3 and Radio Catalunya media and appear me on the Catalan-speaking Catalan independentists's comments putting links that would take to recent interviews of members that made conferences in those main tvs and radios of Catalonia recently, I click and take me to the offcial tv3 page but the file was deleted. Also in other websites, this time of Spanish newspapers today they include a photo of the leaders of this institution talking on TV3. I do not know if that is because as they have all the rights reserved for the interviews they managed to erase them at this time of the internationalization of the process. I am commenting this time only on the sources related to the interviews in the mass media of Catalan television Although I find on youtube enough interviews of these members in the same medias talking this one something recent but mostly that are seen right now are of 20 years ago; I also found enough videos on YouTube when these members talk about all this at the Catalan National Assembly as they are current secretariats of the Catalan National Assembly, and all important members of Catalan independence, some creating anthem for this, organizing all kinds of things, appearing alongside main leaders-- ILoveCaracas ( talk) 23:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep even if the article has a non-neutral point of view on the topic, the topic is suitable to keep. It is not so negative as an attack, but is a negative point of view expressed in our author's voice. Some rewriting may serve to balance it. Graeme Bartlett ( talk) 00:01, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep – The institute's ideas seem indeed loony, but that's no reason to delete a well-sourced article about a notable subject. If there's a problem with the article's POV of the institute, it can be dealt with there. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 01:44, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep and improve where needed .... WP:Does deletion help?.-- Moxy ( talk) 03:11, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep - I objected here to the links to this article that had been added in the "See also" section in other articles such as the one on Shakespeare, El Cid, etc. but not to the article itself. References should be checked, maybe some could be found in English, but the institution does exist and it does promote these theories. As long as the info is verifiable, the article should remain. Maragm ( talk) 05:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC) Found two refs in English from reputable sources in case anyone wants to add them to the article for referencing. This one and this other one. In this last one, p. 6 of the PDF, it mentions not just Columbus but other historical figures who the Institut also claim are Catalan. Maragm ( talk) 06:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- Keep. From even a cursory check this institute is notable - multiple google news and book hits. I do share nom's concerns regarding POV - however they are best addressed by editing the article - if need be by stubbing it down to a short neutral stub. Icewhiz ( talk) 06:44, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.