- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. —ScottyWong— 02:48, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Illuminates of Thanateros
AfDs for this article:
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- Illuminates of Thanateros ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Notability not evident, sourcing dubious, written like a fan page. Acous mana 12:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Magic-related deletion discussions. Acous mana 12:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's like reading about D&D, but there is some sourcing, and this is acceptable--though one wonders what a relatively decent publisher like Greenwood is doing publishing this. Drmies ( talk) 13:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hang on .. that book refers to "the introduction to his book, Liber Null and Psychonaut" and directly quotes Peter Carroll's description of IoT. Peter Carroll is the founder of IoT so that source is essentially a PRIMARY source and isn't acceptable for establishing notability. HighKing ++ 19:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- The IoT is a notable organization with a significant influence on contemporary occultism and spirituality. However, the article is indeed not written in an encyclopedic or scientific way. I think we should keep the article. Schenkstroop ( talk) 23:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:30, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Strong keep, while the page is badly written, IoT is notable. Sourcing seems fine. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!( talk or whatever) 11:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- keep, or merge into chaos magic. alternative culture during the 1990s, particularly industrial music and metal genres, was heavily influenced by chaos magic specifically, and this philosophy club was demonstrably significant in the propagation of that memetic. the article itself as prose reads similar to other accounts of secretive societies, with the usual sourcing issues, vandalism, dubious claims. bill burroughs and trent reznor's association might be enough to satisfy inclusion. 98.225.27.171 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep As per the reference identified by Schenkstroop below and the referenced works within, meet NCORP criteria for establishing notability.
Deletestrike previous !vote This is an organization therefore WP:NCORP guidelines apply. There are very particular criteria for establishing notability - we need to see references that discuss the *organization* (not the founders) in detail. As per WP:SIRS *each* reference must meet the criteria for establishing notability - deep or significant coverage with in-depth information *on the organization* and containing "Independent Content". "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. None of the references meet the criteria for establishing notability of the company, I'm unable to find any and none of the Keep !voters above have provided any except for one book source which fails ORGIND. The topic organization is already mentioned in Chaos magic. Topic therefore fails WP:NCORP. HighKing ++ 19:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have added the following source:
- Otto, Bernd-Christian (2020). "The Illuminates of Thanateros and the institutionalisation of religious individualisation". In Fuchs, Martin; et al. (eds.). Religious Individualisation. p. 762. doi: 10.1515/9783110580853-038.
- Schenkstroop ( talk) 20:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. —ScottyWong— 02:48, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Illuminates of Thanateros
AfDs for this article:
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Illuminates of Thanateros ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Notability not evident, sourcing dubious, written like a fan page. Acous mana 12:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Magic-related deletion discussions. Acous mana 12:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's like reading about D&D, but there is some sourcing, and this is acceptable--though one wonders what a relatively decent publisher like Greenwood is doing publishing this. Drmies ( talk) 13:30, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hang on .. that book refers to "the introduction to his book, Liber Null and Psychonaut" and directly quotes Peter Carroll's description of IoT. Peter Carroll is the founder of IoT so that source is essentially a PRIMARY source and isn't acceptable for establishing notability. HighKing ++ 19:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- The IoT is a notable organization with a significant influence on contemporary occultism and spirituality. However, the article is indeed not written in an encyclopedic or scientific way. I think we should keep the article. Schenkstroop ( talk) 23:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:30, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Strong keep, while the page is badly written, IoT is notable. Sourcing seems fine. MY CHEMICAL ROMANCE IS REAL EMO!( talk or whatever) 11:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
- keep, or merge into chaos magic. alternative culture during the 1990s, particularly industrial music and metal genres, was heavily influenced by chaos magic specifically, and this philosophy club was demonstrably significant in the propagation of that memetic. the article itself as prose reads similar to other accounts of secretive societies, with the usual sourcing issues, vandalism, dubious claims. bill burroughs and trent reznor's association might be enough to satisfy inclusion. 98.225.27.171 ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:08, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep As per the reference identified by Schenkstroop below and the referenced works within, meet NCORP criteria for establishing notability.
Deletestrike previous !vote This is an organization therefore WP:NCORP guidelines apply. There are very particular criteria for establishing notability - we need to see references that discuss the *organization* (not the founders) in detail. As per WP:SIRS *each* reference must meet the criteria for establishing notability - deep or significant coverage with in-depth information *on the organization* and containing "Independent Content". "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. None of the references meet the criteria for establishing notability of the company, I'm unable to find any and none of the Keep !voters above have provided any except for one book source which fails ORGIND. The topic organization is already mentioned in Chaos magic. Topic therefore fails WP:NCORP. HighKing ++ 19:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- I have added the following source:
- Otto, Bernd-Christian (2020). "The Illuminates of Thanateros and the institutionalisation of religious individualisation". In Fuchs, Martin; et al. (eds.). Religious Individualisation. p. 762. doi: 10.1515/9783110580853-038.
- Schenkstroop ( talk) 20:00, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.