The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. On strength of the arguments, deletion wins here. Keep !votes are primarily "seems notable" without in-depth analysis of sourcing, and those advocating deletion provide reasons backed up by guidelines. TonyBallioni ( talk) 01:45, 6 August 2018 (UTC) reply

Hinkel Bakery

Hinkel Bakery (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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(Find sources:  Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Run-of-the-mill company. No sources. » Shadowowl | talk 17:04, 14 July 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep - I thought this would be a reasonable AfD given the article, but it turns out there are a number of sources as well as one that indicates there is also a TV show - an argument that a good WP:BEFORE check has to check foreign-based articles in both languages. Sources (in no particular order) include: Source 1, Source 2, Source 3, Source 4, Source 5. There are others that a quick look can find. I reckon at least 3 of these tick the boxes (obviously my knowledge of german news sources isn't widespread). Nosebagbear ( talk) 23:07, 14 July 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Comment Equally, there's an argument for a good old check on the relevant WP:NCORP guidelines (which have been recently revised) and required "intellectually independent" references. None of the references you've provided meet this requirement. HighKing ⁺⁺
  • Comment: In the TV show Frag doch mal die Maus Bäckerei Josef Hinkel and Bäckerei Michael Hinkel are two of nine bakeries from Düsseldorf which take part in baking a gingerbread house: “Bäckerei Josef Hinkel, Hercules Vollkorn- und Mühlenbäckerei, Bäckerei Pass, Bäckerei Schüren, Bäckerei Kapust, Stadtbäcker Westerhorstmann, Bäckerei Behmer, Bäckerei Michael Hinkel und die Bäckerei Puppe.” [1] -- AlternativesLebensglück ( talk) 13:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 01:15, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 01:15, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep. I added the references suggested by @ Nosebagbear:. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 05:02, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply
• Delete The sources identified by Nosebagbear and added to the article by Amorymeltzer Eastmain are not "intellectually independent" and therefore fail WP:ORGIND. This rp-online.de reference repeats a post on the company's Facebook page (PRIMARY source) and fails ORGIND. This backwelt.de reference has no attributed journalist and is simply an ad or announcement for a TV show with a photo of Josef Hinkel. The company is a mere mention-in-passing with no in-depth information. Fails WP:CORPDEPTH. The tonight.de reference is a local guide to someone's "5 favorite shops in Dusseldorf" and provides a profile of the Hinkels and some of the products but does not provide any in-depth information on the company and fails WP:CORPDEPTH. The ekathimerini.com reference relies entirely on an interview with Stavros whose bread is available in the Hinkel bakery and also relies on interview/quotation from Hinkel. It contains no intellectually independent information or analysis and fails WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:ORGIND. Finally, the derwesten.de reference is an ad for "kiffer krust" bread (made with hemp) which was presented on the bakery's Facebook page. Fails both WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:ORGIND. Overall, it appears that the Hinkel Bakery is popular and much loved in Dusseldorg for its excellent bread but that doesn't translate to an organization that meets the criteria for notability. Topic fails GNG and WP:NCORP. HighKing ⁺⁺ 20:56, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply
  • @ HighKing: I didn't add any sources or edit the article at all; I think you mean Eastmain. ~ Amory ( u • t • c) 21:00, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply
    • Fixed, thank you! HighKing ⁺⁺ 21:02, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply
      • @ HighKing: The television program itself is an independent indicator of notability from a reliable source. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply
        • Eastmain Unless the TV program was actually about the bakery, then it isn't an indicator of notability. The fact is, the TV program was about craft bakers from the Düsseldorf area baking a huge gingerbread house. That might make the gingerbread house notable (maybe it broke records?) but it doesn't make the bakers notable. HighKing ⁺⁺ 22:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment. Editors may want to take a look at the corresponding German article at de:Bäckerei Hinkel, which has additional references. It is also at the German equivalent of AfD. Eastmain ( talk • contribs) 12:39, 18 July 2018 (UTC) reply
• Delete This bakery is not notable. 5 shops and 4 Mio. Euro is not enough. Other bakeries have 18 shops and 250 employees. [2] -- AlternativesLebensglück ( talk) 16:19, 18 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Please have a look at WP:OTHER - normally its an argument from those trying to demonstrate notability but it applies both ways. Smaller companies are frequently more notable than their larger equivalents. Nosebagbear ( talk) 16:22, 18 July 2018 (UTC) reply

This is just a small local bakery which is not well-known outside Düsseldorf. All the newspaper reports are from Düsseldorf. -- AlternativesLebensglück ( talk) 13:44, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

I'm not sure how large a population is needed before its coverage becomes wide enough (regardless of geographical size). For example, my (UK) countywide paper is considered reliable, and its population is only about 5% more than Dusseldorf's. Nosebagbear ( talk) 13:49, 20 July 2018 (UTC) reply

Two of the newspapers reports are just reproductions of a facebook entries of the Hinkel bakery which were reprinted in the newspaper which advertise a new kind of bread with marihuana seeds. Baking Bread: Düsseldorfer Bäckerei verkauft "Kiffer-Kruste", rp-online.de (Bakery in Düsseldorf sells "marihuana smoker crust"); „Baking Bread“: Düsseldorfer Bäckerei verkauft „Kiffer-Kruste“ mit Hanfsamen und Hanföl, bakery Düsseldorf from Düsseldorf sells "marihuana smoker crust") The writing style is advertising and not neutral. Entry on Facebook

Tonight is just an online portal of Rheinische Post which isn't published in print. Five bakeries from Düsseldorf are mentioned: Bulle, Hinkel, isabella, Puppe and Terbuyken. ',

The TV show Frag doch mal die Maus shows a short documentary film about baking a gingerbread house. Nine local bakeries from Düsseldorf were involved: Josef Hinkel, Michael Hinkel which belong to the founder of Hinkel bakery and seven other bakeries, Hercules, Pass, Schüren, Kapust, Westerhorstmann, Behmer and Puppe. (“Beteiligt sind: Bäckerei Josef Hinkel, Hercules Vollkorn- und Mühlenbäckerei, Bäckerei Pass, Bäckerei Schüren, Bäckerei Kapust, Stadtbäcker Westerhorstmann, Bäckerei Behmer, Bäckerei Michael Hinkel und die Bäckerei Puppe.”) Bäckerei means bakery. [3], Backwelt is not a newspaper, but an online portal for bakeries.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/214045/article/ekathimerini/community/award-winning-stavros-evangelous-smyrnaean-bread-proves-a-hit-in-dusseldorf deals with a Greek baker who works at the bakery. The newspaper report is not focused on the Hinkel bakery, but on the Greek baker. -- AlternativesLebensglück ( talk) 00:15, 21 July 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep Seems notable enough with coverage beyond local sources, should qualify under WP:GNG. Hzh ( talk) 12:30, 22 July 2018 (UTC) reply

• Keep WP:MILL is not policy and it's easy to find sources when you allow for the language, e.g. this. Andrew D. ( talk) 08:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC) reply
  • Response True, but just to point out that you haven't pointed to any policies to support your argument. WP:GNG and WP:NCORP are the guidelines for corporations/organizations and your link above fails since it is not significant coverage and isn't even about the bakery but about one of the bakers. Your reference fails WP:SIGCOV and WP:CORPDEPTH. Also, two references are required that meet the criteria for establishing notability and so far, we don't have any. HighKing ⁺⁺ 15:27, 29 July 2018 (UTC) reply
    • WP:GNG and WP:NCORP aren't policies either; they are mere guidelines. It's up to the nominator to make a case for action to be taken but actual policies which support my position include: WP:ATD, WP:NOTPAPER and WP:PRESERVE. Andrew D. ( talk) 17:41, 29 July 2018 (UTC) reply
      • Lovely strawman argument - I never said they were policies. But they are the relevant guidelines which provide clarification on how to interpret our policies and are accepted by the community as such. You can call them "mere guidelines" if you like but they're considered an excellent standard by which to measure notability of articles such as this one. I'll leave it to the closing admin to make sense and understand the relevance of the policies you've listed above. HighKing ⁺⁺ 19:03, 29 July 2018 (UTC) reply
• Delete per HighKing und AlternativesLebensglück -- DexterPointy ( talk) 18:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC) reply
• Comment I don't see a clear argument this article must be kept or deleted. Coverage of this bakery as one of nine that baked a gingerbread house is clearly trivial, and this is a PR gimmick. Other coverage (such as [4]) is more substantial. power~enwiki ( π, ν) 23:02, 5 August 2018 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.