- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Given that different editors come up with different names, this is a clear failure of WP:V. Randykitty ( talk) 16:06, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hilalaya ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
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This is an object case of why it's not wise to rely on maps compiled for some other purpose. In this case the source of this is a UN map: every other "substantial" reference to the name is on a copy of this map. Geonames, however, doesn't believe in it, and after more GMap scanning than ought to be necessary, I don't either. The article drops you in the ocean, but the closest settlement on the coast that I could find definitely has a different name, and doesn't appear to be at quite the same location as the dot on the map suggests. I'd be willing to accept its reality if the text of the various uses of the map talked about the place, even incidentally, but they don't. Mangoe ( talk) 17:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- The map does say The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations. and there is nothing at the spot marked. The nearest land to the supposed coords is definitely an empty sand dune. The few villages nearby are clearly labelled with other names. Prince of Thieves ( talk) 22:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. MT Train Discuss 04:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. MT Train Discuss 04:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep and move to Ceel-Lahelay It seems that the language in this article nomination is riddled with Eurocentric terms and thought processes. Somalis are historically among the most nomadic people in the world; moving from place to place for grazing for their cattle. Western norms and thought processes should not be applied to the Somali people. Maintaing articles such as this one is important since, even if isolated, it represents clan territory for a specific sub-clan, in this case I believe the Saruur Habar Gidir.. Also, I looked at the sources, and they are not misrepresentative 92.19.179.136 ( talk) 07:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- You know, maybe or maybe not this is a lot of talking around the point. But whatever rationalization you you want to make for ignoring the impoverishment of sources, the raw problem remains that the only sources we an find, which are western and governmental and therefore can bring western, governmental, thorough resources to the matter, nonetheless fail to check out themselves, never mind having issues with matching the articles on occasion. I don't have a problem with the notion that villages may not be a terribly meaningful concept, but then the issue is that we need to delete those articles that say there is a village named "Thusly" in such-and-such a place in "Whatever" district, because the whole class of articles is invalid. And I'm for writing articles which address the things better than a western dots-and-lines-on-maps basis, but the problem is that the only sources I'm finding are entirely western maps that that say "there is a dot here and a line there". Otherwise, the correct outcome is that we implicitly confess our ignorance of Somali geography by not writing about it. Mangoe ( talk) 10:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 02:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 02:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- Move My best educated guess is that this actually is called Ceel-Lahelay, which is in the same position as Hilalaya on the UN Map. We don't have an article for and there's a settlement nearby to the marker on OpenStreetMap. Also a note to look at coordinates when reviewing these: Anything with a single significant digit could be up to 11 miles away from the actual point on the map. SportingFlyer ( talk) 07:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- Delete because we apparently can't even meet WP:V. Better to, as Mongoe suggests, confess our ignorance of Somali geography, than to make stuff up that we're not sure is correct. What SportingFlyer suggests, i.e. looking at a map and making an educated guess, is the very definition of WP:OR. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails WP:V, per RoySmith. Mackensen (talk) 02:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Given that different editors come up with different names, this is a clear failure of WP:V. Randykitty ( talk) 16:06, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
- Hilalaya ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This is an object case of why it's not wise to rely on maps compiled for some other purpose. In this case the source of this is a UN map: every other "substantial" reference to the name is on a copy of this map. Geonames, however, doesn't believe in it, and after more GMap scanning than ought to be necessary, I don't either. The article drops you in the ocean, but the closest settlement on the coast that I could find definitely has a different name, and doesn't appear to be at quite the same location as the dot on the map suggests. I'd be willing to accept its reality if the text of the various uses of the map talked about the place, even incidentally, but they don't. Mangoe ( talk) 17:01, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- The map does say The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations. and there is nothing at the spot marked. The nearest land to the supposed coords is definitely an empty sand dune. The few villages nearby are clearly labelled with other names. Prince of Thieves ( talk) 22:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. MT Train Discuss 04:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Somalia-related deletion discussions. MT Train Discuss 04:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- Keep and move to Ceel-Lahelay It seems that the language in this article nomination is riddled with Eurocentric terms and thought processes. Somalis are historically among the most nomadic people in the world; moving from place to place for grazing for their cattle. Western norms and thought processes should not be applied to the Somali people. Maintaing articles such as this one is important since, even if isolated, it represents clan territory for a specific sub-clan, in this case I believe the Saruur Habar Gidir.. Also, I looked at the sources, and they are not misrepresentative 92.19.179.136 ( talk) 07:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
- You know, maybe or maybe not this is a lot of talking around the point. But whatever rationalization you you want to make for ignoring the impoverishment of sources, the raw problem remains that the only sources we an find, which are western and governmental and therefore can bring western, governmental, thorough resources to the matter, nonetheless fail to check out themselves, never mind having issues with matching the articles on occasion. I don't have a problem with the notion that villages may not be a terribly meaningful concept, but then the issue is that we need to delete those articles that say there is a village named "Thusly" in such-and-such a place in "Whatever" district, because the whole class of articles is invalid. And I'm for writing articles which address the things better than a western dots-and-lines-on-maps basis, but the problem is that the only sources I'm finding are entirely western maps that that say "there is a dot here and a line there". Otherwise, the correct outcome is that we implicitly confess our ignorance of Somali geography by not writing about it. Mangoe ( talk) 10:59, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 02:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 02:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- Move My best educated guess is that this actually is called Ceel-Lahelay, which is in the same position as Hilalaya on the UN Map. We don't have an article for and there's a settlement nearby to the marker on OpenStreetMap. Also a note to look at coordinates when reviewing these: Anything with a single significant digit could be up to 11 miles away from the actual point on the map. SportingFlyer ( talk) 07:06, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
- Delete because we apparently can't even meet WP:V. Better to, as Mongoe suggests, confess our ignorance of Somali geography, than to make stuff up that we're not sure is correct. What SportingFlyer suggests, i.e. looking at a map and making an educated guess, is the very definition of WP:OR. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- Delete. Fails WP:V, per RoySmith. Mackensen (talk) 02:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.