The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Speedy Delete and salt as a recreation of a very recently deleted article, with all the same flaws still present. Sergecross73 msg me 16:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

Heaven Sent Gaming

Heaven Sent Gaming (  | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)

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Non-notable organization lacking secondary referneces. Appears to fail WP:ORG and other notability guidelines. reddogsix ( talk) 04:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete and SALT. Seriously? We're doing this again? This article just got deleted, recreated, speedy deleted, had its deletion upheld at deletion review, and the closing admin said that it should not be moved to article space without some kind of review from an experienced editor. This is becoming seriously disruptive, and I think it's finally time to call for sanctions and a possible SPI to find out who is behind these disruptive attempts to create an article for this organization. This is too much drama for one non-notable article, and it needs to be salted. NinjaRobotPirate ( talk) 07:05, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
• Delete I did not authorize this to be moved from my user space, @ XiuBouLin: what's your rationale for this? Smile Lee ( talk) 06:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment the user XiuBouLin's reasoning was placed on the article's talk page. "I have recreated the article due to me not having an "advocacy for this organization". This publisher has a MARC21 Org record, meaning it is nationally accepted as a publisher. These records are not simply given out willy-nilly." Smile Lee ( talk) 06:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• This whole mess is extremely reminiscent of Toby Turner's article from a few years back. I don't want to have anything to do with this debate, or this article. So I'm withdrawing my vote. Smile Lee ( talk) 06:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Speedy Keep I requested a discussion on the talk page of the article, that was obviously overlooked, and I was not the one that removed the Speedy Delete, User:LuigiToeness did. I went off to lunch and all of this happened. There are multiple secondary references on this subject, it meets WP:GNG and WP:ORG. This time there needs to be a civil discussion, no socks or any other nonsense. Let's move this discussion to the article's talk page, so we can correct it this time. AfD is not a place for fixing an article. XiuBouLin ( talk) 06:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Things of relevance to this subject's notability. They have MARC Organization Code, they are listed in ton of directories, a secondary source book covering them as a reference subject, chapter in another book, multiple mentions in newspapers and on talk radio (the Japanese article has been called a "passing mention", when its a front page article), a Wikimedia Commons category, and a Japanese Wikipedia article. I can go on and on (the last two are purposely lame/absurd). XiuBouLin ( talk) 07:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
• ( edit conflict) Specifically, which reliable sources allow Heaven Sent Gaming to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject"?

  My review of the sources in the article indicated there were interviews ( link and link), a letter from a reader that mentioned Heaven Sent Gaming's founders but not Heaven Sent Gaming itself ( link), a Collins College Computer Science Dept. Newsletter ( link), or passing mentions ( link).

  There is a paragraph related to Heaven Sent Gaming in this article ( details from archive.org) from the The Albuquerque Tribune, which says:

  Heaven Sent Gaming is an entertainment team, started by locals Mario J. Lucero and Isabel Ruiz. Their first strip comic, called Reverie, was to be released by United Feature Syndicate. Instead, following United Media recommendation, they will instead be distributing on the world wide web at heavensentgaming.com, I am looking forward to it. They are also working with local musicians, like Life Never Lost; Mario's a country musician himself.

  The author is "The Anonymous Burqueño".

  I don't see enough here to satisfy the GNG but I may be missing something.

  Cunard ( talk) 07:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• https://archive.org/details/ThumbnailOfJapaneseNewspaperJuly27 says, "... story on elementary school in Nerima-ku, children coming home with silly Miyazaki spirit drawn on backpacks and homework. faces from Reverie internet comic by HeavenSentGaming.com children think cute and like draw character Bronjay. details on much information of Mario J Lucero with Isabel Ruiz makers of Heaven Sent Gaming. more details on origins of US NEW MEXICO. ..."

  If there is more coverage of Heaven Sent Gaming not in the archive.org page, there might be enough coverage for the GNG. Cunard ( talk) 07:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Comment: I found this article from Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 July 15#Heaven Sent Gaming. Would an admin fix the cut-and-paste move by history merging Heaven Sent Gaming and User:Smile Lee/Heaven Sent Gaming? Cunard ( talk) 07:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
• Comment thank you Cunard, for that constructive comment. That ヘブン セント ゲーミング is a summary of the main article, it's located in the middle of the page under the Harry Potter image, its a rather large chunk of text. The "Further reading" section has independent sources that are quite lengthy, specifically "Internet Legends" and "New Mexico Free Press"; the "Internet Legends" book obviously has reliability assertions, and is probably the cause for the interest on the subject by editors. This is the exact kind of discussion should be had on the talk page. Which is why I said "Speedy Keep", this shouldn't be a disruptive issue. This might be brought up for AfD later on, but doing it now is causing people to rush through resources. New sources kept coming up, throughout the AfD and the DRV, this needs to be slowly discussed, in actual article space. Especially for incorporating the general editor's help, there's obviously interest in this subject. XiuBouLin ( talk) 07:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• I botched things up even further, moved User:Smile Lee/Heaven Sent Gaming to User:Heaven Sent Gaming, this Heaven Sent Gaming has been botch after botch. There needs to be more time taken with it, even I'm rushing. XiuBouLin ( talk) 07:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

•  DoneCut and paste move fixed by histmerging relevant revisions of User:Smile Lee/Heaven Sent Gaming into User:Heaven Sent Gaming, then histmerging that into the mainspace article. There are some irrelevant revisions along the way (ones subsequent to the cut and paste to mainspace), and there's an odd jump in article size between the two userspace versions (you may have edited the article without saving, then pasted the unsaved version). But the article history should all now be in the right place. Euryalus ( talk) 13:19, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Cunard I will ping you, discussing sources on the article's talk page. This AfD is a distractions and disruptive, and will get nothing done, just like the last AfD and the DRV too. This article needs work, and AfD is not the place for article repair. Hopefully my "Speedy Keep" plea is heeded. XiuBouLin ( talk) 08:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Added a "Notability discussion" to the talk page of the article. I've also asserted notability there, I requested this to be discussed there first, and it should be. AfD is not the place for article clean up. XiuBouLin ( talk) 09:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

Repeating from the talk page of the nominator, "I think a Template:Notability notice would be more apt than an AfD. I too take some issue with the article, but the prior AfD was a mess, and there's no indication this will be any different. This needs to be discussed in a more civil manner. I have voted for a Speedy Keep for this reason." XiuBouLin ( talk) 10:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

My current assertions on the article's talk page, are as follows.

• "Significant coverage": Interview with Mario ( link), interview with Drew Cass ( link) may be a passing mention, Rio Rancho Observer, Albuquerque Tribune (potential passing mention though I imagine Life Never Lost and Perrenials are passing mentions. Heaven Sent Gaming and Neil Patrick Harris have dedicated paragraphs), radio broadcast, Yomiuri Shimbun, main subject of an independently published book by Shigimori Shizuka, chapter in a book by New Mexico Free Press.
• "Reliable": Interview is reliable, as BLP, directly involved with Heaven Sent Gaming, Rio Rancho Observer, Albuquerque Tribune, the book ( Amazon and Google books)by Shigimori Shizuka asserts reliability as "a team of editors responsible for fact-checking and reliability... with experience at; 静山社 (Say-Zan-Sha), リクルート (Recruit), 小学館 (Shogakukan), and ゼンリン (Zenrin)" and "Scholastic, Penguin Random House, Macmillan, and HarperCollins", and I can't find anything on the New Mexico Free Press book except for this on Google Books.
• "Sources": All of the above are secondary and tertiary sources. Since this is a publisher subject, their publications, published authors, and people directly connected with it should be used as sources themselves.
• "Presumed": listed on several databases. Most importantly they have a MARC 21 ORG from the Library of Congress, meaning they are nationally accepted enough to require a shortened format for local, national and international libraries.
• Sources like the interview with Mario, the book by Shigimori Shizuka, the radio broadcast, and Yomiuri Shimbun, meet WP:AUD, WP:CORPDEPTH, & WP:ORGIND. And, as I stated above, WP:GNG. XiuBouLin ( talk) 11:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC) XiuBouLin ( talk) 11:21, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
• Delete. Also, this time, salt so that there has to be a proper review of this article before it can be re-created. This was deleted very recently for lack of sources, the deletion was upheld because of the lack of sources, and now it's been re-created with sources that are, I'm afraid, still utterly inadequate. They are as follows:- (1) A youtube video; (2) Stats about someone's youtube account; (3) A podcast hosted on soundcloud; (4) A profile on http://www.cmt.com which is user-generated content; (5) An interview transcript (which is a primary source); (6) A reliable source (the Rio Rancho Observer), which looks better, but on investigation this is a passing mention advising us that two high-school sweethearts are starting a business together; (7) Something that sets off my browser's alerts about security certificates; (8) An interview transcript (which is a primary source); (9) Something that sets off my browser's alerts about security certificates; (10) A passing mention on an interview in local radio; and (11) Something in Japanese.

  This is a marketing exercise disguised as a Wikipedia article. There are lots of good reasons why Wikipedia is attractive to marketers, and if we tolerated this sort of thing we soon wouldn't be able to find anything useful in our encyclopaedia because it'd be full of advertorials about people's corner shops and ice cream parlours.— S Marshall T/ C 11:35, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• @ S Marshall: (1) Used to quote their first successful release by them; (2) Stats from one of their published YouTube channels indicating a relationship with Square-Enix; (3) The publishers official Soundcloud (4) CMT and MTV remove content if its not up to snuff after a week of two; (5) Interview is not primary, as it is published by a second or third party; (6) Yes, Mario and Isabel were starting a business, the one that's the subject of the article; (7) That's an image file, there's no reason for it to set off anything, it's an college newsletter; (8) An interview from The Boston Globe, its a passing mention, but displays a relationship between Drew Cass and confirms information from the college newsletter; (9) Does your browser hate image files? It's a scanned newspaper article from the Albuquerque Tribune; (10) Not an interview, its 12 minutes, from a completely different area than the publisher's location, discussing a controversy about Google shutting down Heaven Sent Gaming's AdSense; (11) Yomiuri Shimbun is the most widely distributed paper in Japan, with multiple editions, some are not web cataloged, this one has a scanned page describing an article talking about kids in Tokyo coming home with Heaven Sent Gaming's Reverie characters drawn on their bookbags and such, it also talks about who Heaven Sent Gaming is and about Reverie; You also forgot to mention the "further reading" section, which contains (12) the publisher itself; (13) an independently produced secondary source book discussing the topic in depth; (14) another book containing a multi-page chapter discussing the topic. This is not an "advertorial" for a corner shop or ice cream parlour, its a nationally accepted organization according to the Library of Congress. XiuBouLin ( talk) 11:57, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Please stop trying the community's patience with this.— S Marshall T/ C 15:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

• Delete and salt as blatant marketing / advocacy. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply
• Delete and salt, same reasons as last AFD, as well as per nom and NinjaRobotPirate. I do not plan to reply again to this AFD, it's already going down the same path of advocacy that the last AFD and the DRV went. -- ferret ( talk) 13:13, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions. ( G· N· B· S· RS· Talk) -- ferret ( talk) 13:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC) reply

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.