The result was redirect to History of Xinjiang. Well, the nominating statement is a bit vague (claims of something being an "attack page" need to be substantiated a bit more, "does not cover its actual subject" aside from being disputed does not necessarily merit) but some clearer arguments have crystallized out in the discussion. The delete argument is basically that it's a page created to attack a subject, using misused/cherrypicked sources and despite the existence of an other article - History of Xinjiang - on a similar topic ( WP:POVFORK). On the keep side, I see arguments that there are sources that discuss the topic in detail and some differences in opinion about whether they are actually adequate, as well as the point that ordinarily when a page has problematic content it is cleaned up rather than deleted. There has been some discussion on the last point about whether WP:ATTACK or WP:DYNAMITE are reasons for deletion. There is also some discussion of topic bans, sinophobia and the like which doesn't really help assessing the status of the discussion. On the basis of headcount, I see 11 delete or redirect arguments - which I am counting together as both propose getting rid of the page and some endorse either outcome - and 5 keeps plus one struck sockpuppet vote.
On balance, it seems like what this boils down to is that the topic may be noteworthy - detailed discussion about sources was a bit sparse at first and later swamped by accusations - but the article in its present shape is quite poor - the attack claim appears to be based on reasoned arguments - I see Geo Swan's contestation but it is by itself rather vague (and too heavily dependent on comparisons to other pages). The deletion policy does allow for the deletion of attack pages and also of POV forks. The headcount barely favours removal of the article. On the other hand, the question of whether the topic may merit a page is unsettled.
Ultimately, this is a redirect case, as a) redirecting has been suggested and endorsed by some !voters, with the history page implicitly mentioned, b) to meet the scope of the deletion argument as the argument that the page in its current state violates key policies and guidelines is well supported and c) to leave the content available in case someone wants to fix the article's problems and in case the sources turn out to be usable (that is, to meet some of the concerns of the keep arguments). That would probably need more discussion, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 12:49, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
Article does not cover its ostensible subject and is basically an attack page. Adoring nanny ( talk) 02:09, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The edit history indicates that this is a spinoff from History of Xinjiang which is tagged as too long and so that's reasonable-- this argument doesn't make sense, since the corresponding section of the Xinjiang history article could not be reasonably shortened based on the existence of this article. Hijiri 88 ( è– ã‚„ã‚„) 13:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Occasionally, after a long process where good faith contributors have tried, and failed, to agree on a compromise wording, it is then appropriate to call for deletion. But our nominator, Adoring nanny, jumped immediately to calling for deletion without even attempting to voice their concern on the talk page.
When the nomination says this article is "basically an attack page" I am afraid we are seeing a failure on the part of nominator - either a failure of imagination, or a failure of neutrality. Look at this google search for Uyghur and "forced marraige". RS report on legal and human rights experts describing the phenomenon of Uyghur women being forced to marry Han men as a crisis, as a kind of genocide. Geo Swan ( talk) 15:32, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Reliable sources claim China's policy towards the Uyghurs (and the Tibetans) constitutes massive breaches of International Human Rights standards, could be a form of genocide.
Here are a couple of thought experiments. (1) If the apartheit system remained in practice in South Africa, what restrictions would we place on those trying to right about the daily human rights breaches of the apartheit system? (2) If the US Civil War had not been fought, and the USA still allowed slavery, what coverage would we allow to abolitionists?
I'd like to think we would honor NPOV and RS, and allow contributors to cover the views of those who voiced challenges to those systems, so long as they used the neutral voice, and substantiated everything they wrote about with good authoritative references.
My call on everyone to recognize that RS describe a Chinese policy to force or coerce Uyghur women to marry Han men is not "sinophobic". Geo Swan ( talk) 12:42, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Please don't claim it is "obvious". I suggest that if the article doesn't lapse from neutrality, describes something written about by reliable sources, then it is no more an attack page than an article on apartheit.
If none of you can substantiate the "attack page" claim then the advice of DYNOMITE doesn't apply either. Geo Swan ( talk) 12:57, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Why shouldn't I expect my fellow contributors, why shouldn't I expect you, to live up to the same standards?
In your comment above did you mean to leave the impression that you just don't want a wikipedia article to cover the RS that document China's policies on the Uyghurs? Geo Swan ( talk) 14:07, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
The first, known as the Qumul Rebellion, occurred in 1931 when the predatory behaviour of a Chinese military commander towards a local Uyghur woman resulted in his assassination and a series of uprisings against the Chinese warlord administration in Urumchi.
There have been accounts of systematic torture, rape, forced sterilisation programmes, forced marriages of Uighur women to Han Chinese men, forced adoptions of Uighur children to Han Chinese families, public executions, and even evidence pointing to the harvesting of live organs.
'Credible and corroborated reports and testimony point to evidence authorities are deploying the whole gamut of repressive measures to carry out what can only be described as cultural genocide, including the establishment of a network of concentration camps; accounts of torture, forced marriage, and adoption and sterilisation programmes,' he told Al Jazeera.
The immediate catalyst for it was outrage at the forced marriage of a local girl to a Chinese lieutenant, but discontent among Turkic-speaking Muslims had been growing since Jin's abolition of the local wang (king) administration in 1930, the immediate effects of which were the imposition of new taxes, and an influx of poor Chinese immigrants.
Greve said government action needed to be taken in response to the repression of Uighurs, which included forcible separation of children from their parents, reports of forced marriage between Uighurs and Han Chinese, and the banning of Uighur language and culture.
The result was redirect to History of Xinjiang. Well, the nominating statement is a bit vague (claims of something being an "attack page" need to be substantiated a bit more, "does not cover its actual subject" aside from being disputed does not necessarily merit) but some clearer arguments have crystallized out in the discussion. The delete argument is basically that it's a page created to attack a subject, using misused/cherrypicked sources and despite the existence of an other article - History of Xinjiang - on a similar topic ( WP:POVFORK). On the keep side, I see arguments that there are sources that discuss the topic in detail and some differences in opinion about whether they are actually adequate, as well as the point that ordinarily when a page has problematic content it is cleaned up rather than deleted. There has been some discussion on the last point about whether WP:ATTACK or WP:DYNAMITE are reasons for deletion. There is also some discussion of topic bans, sinophobia and the like which doesn't really help assessing the status of the discussion. On the basis of headcount, I see 11 delete or redirect arguments - which I am counting together as both propose getting rid of the page and some endorse either outcome - and 5 keeps plus one struck sockpuppet vote.
On balance, it seems like what this boils down to is that the topic may be noteworthy - detailed discussion about sources was a bit sparse at first and later swamped by accusations - but the article in its present shape is quite poor - the attack claim appears to be based on reasoned arguments - I see Geo Swan's contestation but it is by itself rather vague (and too heavily dependent on comparisons to other pages). The deletion policy does allow for the deletion of attack pages and also of POV forks. The headcount barely favours removal of the article. On the other hand, the question of whether the topic may merit a page is unsettled.
Ultimately, this is a redirect case, as a) redirecting has been suggested and endorsed by some !voters, with the history page implicitly mentioned, b) to meet the scope of the deletion argument as the argument that the page in its current state violates key policies and guidelines is well supported and c) to leave the content available in case someone wants to fix the article's problems and in case the sources turn out to be usable (that is, to meet some of the concerns of the keep arguments). That would probably need more discussion, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 12:49, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
Article does not cover its ostensible subject and is basically an attack page. Adoring nanny ( talk) 02:09, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
The edit history indicates that this is a spinoff from History of Xinjiang which is tagged as too long and so that's reasonable-- this argument doesn't make sense, since the corresponding section of the Xinjiang history article could not be reasonably shortened based on the existence of this article. Hijiri 88 ( è– ã‚„ã‚„) 13:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Occasionally, after a long process where good faith contributors have tried, and failed, to agree on a compromise wording, it is then appropriate to call for deletion. But our nominator, Adoring nanny, jumped immediately to calling for deletion without even attempting to voice their concern on the talk page.
When the nomination says this article is "basically an attack page" I am afraid we are seeing a failure on the part of nominator - either a failure of imagination, or a failure of neutrality. Look at this google search for Uyghur and "forced marraige". RS report on legal and human rights experts describing the phenomenon of Uyghur women being forced to marry Han men as a crisis, as a kind of genocide. Geo Swan ( talk) 15:32, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Reliable sources claim China's policy towards the Uyghurs (and the Tibetans) constitutes massive breaches of International Human Rights standards, could be a form of genocide.
Here are a couple of thought experiments. (1) If the apartheit system remained in practice in South Africa, what restrictions would we place on those trying to right about the daily human rights breaches of the apartheit system? (2) If the US Civil War had not been fought, and the USA still allowed slavery, what coverage would we allow to abolitionists?
I'd like to think we would honor NPOV and RS, and allow contributors to cover the views of those who voiced challenges to those systems, so long as they used the neutral voice, and substantiated everything they wrote about with good authoritative references.
My call on everyone to recognize that RS describe a Chinese policy to force or coerce Uyghur women to marry Han men is not "sinophobic". Geo Swan ( talk) 12:42, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Please don't claim it is "obvious". I suggest that if the article doesn't lapse from neutrality, describes something written about by reliable sources, then it is no more an attack page than an article on apartheit.
If none of you can substantiate the "attack page" claim then the advice of DYNOMITE doesn't apply either. Geo Swan ( talk) 12:57, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Why shouldn't I expect my fellow contributors, why shouldn't I expect you, to live up to the same standards?
In your comment above did you mean to leave the impression that you just don't want a wikipedia article to cover the RS that document China's policies on the Uyghurs? Geo Swan ( talk) 14:07, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
The first, known as the Qumul Rebellion, occurred in 1931 when the predatory behaviour of a Chinese military commander towards a local Uyghur woman resulted in his assassination and a series of uprisings against the Chinese warlord administration in Urumchi.
There have been accounts of systematic torture, rape, forced sterilisation programmes, forced marriages of Uighur women to Han Chinese men, forced adoptions of Uighur children to Han Chinese families, public executions, and even evidence pointing to the harvesting of live organs.
'Credible and corroborated reports and testimony point to evidence authorities are deploying the whole gamut of repressive measures to carry out what can only be described as cultural genocide, including the establishment of a network of concentration camps; accounts of torture, forced marriage, and adoption and sterilisation programmes,' he told Al Jazeera.
The immediate catalyst for it was outrage at the forced marriage of a local girl to a Chinese lieutenant, but discontent among Turkic-speaking Muslims had been growing since Jin's abolition of the local wang (king) administration in 1930, the immediate effects of which were the imposition of new taxes, and an influx of poor Chinese immigrants.
Greve said government action needed to be taken in response to the repression of Uighurs, which included forcible separation of children from their parents, reports of forced marriage between Uighurs and Han Chinese, and the banning of Uighur language and culture.