- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is clear consensus the article requires editorial/fact-checking attention. There is not clear consensus that a beatified saint is automatically notable, although there is some WP:COMMONSENSE value to the position. There is also no clear consensus the article should be deleted, nor kept. Therefore the no-consensus close. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 15:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Gregorio Celli
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Something isn't right here. I don't speak Italian, which is hampering this, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of sources. The claim of living to 118 is what tipped me off, that's clearly bogus, and for claims like this article is making it should be easy to find basic sources. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 16:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear ( talk) 10:46, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear ( talk) 10:46, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
- Delete extraordinary claims require strong sources, which we lack. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Lack of reliable sources per above. Orientls ( talk) 05:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Surely the salient information is that he has been beatified by the Roman Catholic Church? Whether the claims about him are true or not, that certainly makes him notable. And there seem to be plenty of sources online that confirm this. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:01, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- None of them come close to meeting RS, which leaves us with a highly implausible claim. Honestly I smell a hoax. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 14:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment There are sources over several centuries. Most of them seem not to give a birth date, eg this [1] from 1989 just gives his date of death (as ca 1343); this [2] (result 2) from 1854 says where he was born, that he died in 1343, and also gives the date his cult was approved; this [3] from 1702 gives the date of 1343, and also mentions the dates 1224, 1254, and 1276 (on pages 154-156). I have not put the text into google translate to try to work out what those dates refer to - what is clear to me is that they all agree on a death date of (ca) 1343, and the 19th and 20th century sources do not give a date of birth, probably because they were more rational than the 1702 writer. I would suggest that the article could be edited to remove the specific dates, and say instead "at the age of 15 ...." etc. I'm not sure how relevant some of the info is (eg the famous heretic he met; the grand union he witnessed ....) - they could surely be deleted. (Just checked that famous heretic - he died in 1276, so quite possible that someone who died in 1343 met or saw him, though probably as a child, and probably not while preaching.) Anyway - there seems no question that Gregorio Celli was beatified by the Catholic Church, and is therefore presumed notable; he died in 1343; some facts of his life are known (where he was born, the order he entered); and travelling to Rome in 1300 is quite possible for someone who died in 1343 - so is retreating to a contemplative existence (if "he had served for decades" is deleted from that sentence, the only thing that is lost is implausibility). RebeccaGreen ( talk) 15:47, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hmmm... yes, that makes a lot more sense. This is not my field of history (I'm better with East Asia), but your research makes a lot more sense out of this. I'll see if I can contribute anything of value. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 16:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:25, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:25, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep WP:NCATHOLIC notability guide or essay on notability seems the most useful - it says, "an individual will almost always have sufficient coverage to qualify if they: #3 Are in the process of possible canonization and are recognized by the titles "Venerable" and/or "Blessed"." This certainly applies to Gregorio Celli, and google shows that there are sources over several centuries. RebeccaGreen ( talk) 09:49, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep as a beatified saint passes WP:NCATHOLIC Atlantic306 ( talk) 14:46, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep -- The Pope who beatified him thereby identified that he was notable. Whether the claim as to his longevity is correct or not has no bearing on that. Peterkingiron ( talk) 16:07, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: WP:NCATHOLIC is an essay, and, as such, irrelevant. I see no evidence that there is community consensus that all Catholic saints are notable. No opinion otherwise. Sandstein 12:14, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is clear consensus the article requires editorial/fact-checking attention. There is not clear consensus that a beatified saint is automatically notable, although there is some WP:COMMONSENSE value to the position. There is also no clear consensus the article should be deleted, nor kept. Therefore the no-consensus close. 78.26 ( spin me / revolutions) 15:13, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Gregorio Celli
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Gregorio Celli ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Something isn't right here. I don't speak Italian, which is hampering this, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of sources. The claim of living to 118 is what tipped me off, that's clearly bogus, and for claims like this article is making it should be easy to find basic sources. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 16:38, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Italy-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:24, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear ( talk) 10:46, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear ( talk) 10:46, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
- Delete extraordinary claims require strong sources, which we lack. John Pack Lambert ( talk) 02:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
- Delete Lack of reliable sources per above. Orientls ( talk) 05:20, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep Surely the salient information is that he has been beatified by the Roman Catholic Church? Whether the claims about him are true or not, that certainly makes him notable. And there seem to be plenty of sources online that confirm this. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:01, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
- None of them come close to meeting RS, which leaves us with a highly implausible claim. Honestly I smell a hoax. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 14:39, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment There are sources over several centuries. Most of them seem not to give a birth date, eg this [1] from 1989 just gives his date of death (as ca 1343); this [2] (result 2) from 1854 says where he was born, that he died in 1343, and also gives the date his cult was approved; this [3] from 1702 gives the date of 1343, and also mentions the dates 1224, 1254, and 1276 (on pages 154-156). I have not put the text into google translate to try to work out what those dates refer to - what is clear to me is that they all agree on a death date of (ca) 1343, and the 19th and 20th century sources do not give a date of birth, probably because they were more rational than the 1702 writer. I would suggest that the article could be edited to remove the specific dates, and say instead "at the age of 15 ...." etc. I'm not sure how relevant some of the info is (eg the famous heretic he met; the grand union he witnessed ....) - they could surely be deleted. (Just checked that famous heretic - he died in 1276, so quite possible that someone who died in 1343 met or saw him, though probably as a child, and probably not while preaching.) Anyway - there seems no question that Gregorio Celli was beatified by the Catholic Church, and is therefore presumed notable; he died in 1343; some facts of his life are known (where he was born, the order he entered); and travelling to Rome in 1300 is quite possible for someone who died in 1343 - so is retreating to a contemplative existence (if "he had served for decades" is deleted from that sentence, the only thing that is lost is implausibility). RebeccaGreen ( talk) 15:47, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Hmmm... yes, that makes a lot more sense. This is not my field of history (I'm better with East Asia), but your research makes a lot more sense out of this. I'll see if I can contribute anything of value. The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい) 16:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:25, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:25, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep WP:NCATHOLIC notability guide or essay on notability seems the most useful - it says, "an individual will almost always have sufficient coverage to qualify if they: #3 Are in the process of possible canonization and are recognized by the titles "Venerable" and/or "Blessed"." This certainly applies to Gregorio Celli, and google shows that there are sources over several centuries. RebeccaGreen ( talk) 09:49, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep as a beatified saint passes WP:NCATHOLIC Atlantic306 ( talk) 14:46, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Keep -- The Pope who beatified him thereby identified that he was notable. Whether the claim as to his longevity is correct or not has no bearing on that. Peterkingiron ( talk) 16:07, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: WP:NCATHOLIC is an essay, and, as such, irrelevant. I see no evidence that there is community consensus that all Catholic saints are notable. No opinion otherwise. Sandstein 12:14, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.