- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Meher Baba#Teachings. Whether to merge anything remains open for discussion. Sandstein 17:33, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
God-realization (Meher Baba)
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- God-realization (Meher Baba) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Sourcing looks impressive at first glances but barring Cohen it's either sourced to Meher Baba himself or publications by follower-trustees or random non-independent websites.
Not seeing any significant coverage of the concept apart from trivial mentions; delete, please. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting. Thought you were striking. As to nom, redirect to Meher Baba. Merge what is best-sourced if anything not redundant. Must be some lines on this in a section to be made the landing spot. Hyperbolick ( talk) 17:42, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per sources used: the Cohen book published by
Harper & Row (a reputable publisher), the vetted and published Emory University Ph.D. doctoral dissertation, and the Purdom book published by
George Allen & Unwin (a reputable publisher). Meher Baba's own book
God Speaks published by
Dodd, Mead & Co. (a reputable publisher) is then used to describe the concept, which I would think is acceptable given the number of good sources already used on the page. I may now be told that people who write about someone they like can't be used as sources, even if published and vetted by reputable publishers. I've been threatened to be taken to ANI over my actions on these Baba deletion pages, and called incompetent on my talk page by an established editor. But I still must ask, what is exactly wrong with the PhD. paper and the books mentioned above, I thought reputable publishers who vet their material are used as sources on Wikipedia. It's lucky I've got one of those fake trophy fishes that sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy" (which is the closest I've come to being a follower of Meher Baba).
Randy Kryn (
talk) 22:00, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Appreciate sources but being Meher Baba’s philosophy, why not incorporate into his page? Hyperbolick ( talk) 04:13, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
- PhD dissertations are not reliable sources usually, and the publication came of a non-independent house-press.
- Meher Baba's own book is reliable for documenting what Meher Baba said and certainly does not allude to the notability of any concepts, contained therein.
- Purdom is quite non-independent and his contribution to the case of notability, is borderline. ∯WBG converse 07:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Same problem of WP:WALLEDGARDEN exists with this article and Mandali (Meher Baba), New Life (Meher Baba) and Perfect Master (Meher Baba). all maybe merged into Meher Baba or separate article on his teachings/concepts can be made in case the merging isnt feasible due to article size constraints. §§ Dharmadhyaksha§§ { Talk / Edits} 10:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
- This article has nothing to do with WP:WALLEDGARDEN, an essay which is summarized: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia. Don't create a group of articles that exclusively link to each other." This article has many unwalled-garden outgoing and incoming links. These can be easily seen by reading the article and noticing the outgoing links, and then clicking on the 'What links here' topic which appears (at least in Monobook) on the left-hand sidebar. Randy Kryn ( talk) 02:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the essence of the essay is that there shouldn't be standalone article which are just related to each other and which can be merged into. It does not mean that one should check the "What links here" and be happy that something turns out. Just for the sake of linking, one can always
disregard MOS, give wrong
piped links and so on. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 03:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- No, the essence of the essay is as summarized in the "Summary" box at the top of the page: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia. Don't create a group of articles that exclusively link to each other." The page has links to many articles outside of Baba related pages, and has many incoming links outside of links to Baba related articles. "Walled garden" does not apply in this case.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 20:30, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
-
Randy Kryn, pray provide some of those
many incoming links
from this list. I am seeing 4 links from articles within this Meher-baba-garden, 3 from out of the garden and 1 from a dis-amb page. ∯WBG converse 07:31, 8 October 2019 (UTC)- "Pray" seems the right word here, as the concept of God-realization is present in many practices and instructional spiritual teachings. A state of mind or an actual personal experience with whatever people define as the "Divine" (yoga, for instance, means "yoke" or "union with God" or "union with the divine").
- It seems Meher Baba calls this state of mind or being "God-realization". Appropriate links to this page include the term Spiritual evolution, which begins "Spiritual evolution is the philosophical, theological, esoteric or spiritual idea that nature and human beings and/or human culture evolve: either extending from an established cosmological pattern (ascent), or in accordance with certain pre-established potentials." The page Plane (esotericism)'s short description is "A subtle state, level, or region of reality", and Involution (esoterism) says "In some instances it refers to a process that occurs prior to evolution and gives rise to the cosmos, in others an aspect of evolution, and still others a process that follows the completion of evolution in the human form."
- These pages provide links to this page, with a key page Spiritual evolution pointing to Baba's contributing thoughts to the concept. The walled garden essay calls for incoming links (its summary again: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia") - and three good links fulfill this requirement. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
-
Randy Kryn, pray provide some of those
- No, the essence of the essay is as summarized in the "Summary" box at the top of the page: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia. Don't create a group of articles that exclusively link to each other." The page has links to many articles outside of Baba related pages, and has many incoming links outside of links to Baba related articles. "Walled garden" does not apply in this case.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 20:30, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the essence of the essay is that there shouldn't be standalone article which are just related to each other and which can be merged into. It does not mean that one should check the "What links here" and be happy that something turns out. Just for the sake of linking, one can always
disregard MOS, give wrong
piped links and so on. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 03:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:49, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:49, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Please do not remove this page from the Meher Baba template, as the nominator did in this edit, I assume in good faith, on 8 October with the edit summary "take out of template for a cause". Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Would like to clarify, per the information asked above about outside links, that the Spiritual evolution page and the Involution (esoterism) page both have entire sections which describe this topic, and not just a link. Randy Kryn ( talk) 04:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Now the nominator removed the entire section on this topic on Spiritual evolution with this edit with an insulting edit summary to whatever editor added it (the appropriately placed per-topic and on-topic section was added on 15 May, 2011, by user Hoverfish). They also once again removed this page from the Meher Baba template. On the basis of "tampering with the evidence" this AfD should be immediately ended. Randy Kryn ( talk) 12:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete / Merge (if there is anything to merge) to Meher_Baba#Teachings. §§ Dharmadhyaksha§§ { Talk / Edits} 03:14, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- You pretty much made your 'delete' ivote above, which is how I and possibly Sandstein read it (if it wasn't an ivote then maybe this AfD would have been closed as no consensus instead of relisted twice). Do you have another reason to delete besides the walled-garden, or is this an "I don't like it comment?". Thanks. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- My reason is same that this has no notability outside Meher Baba's connection. Read the article; it has nothing from outside world. It only talks about the theory that baba proposed. He draws connections with other theories; but that's again what he says. This is the walled garden in the sense I explained above; which might not be what others interpret from the essay. But in short, the topic has no standalone notability outside Baba's connection. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 13:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- That wall-gardened reason seems incorrect per the standalone nobility this article achieves through an entire subsection and link in the
Spiritual evolution article, where this topic fits into and adds to the article's subject. The links in the article itself further define what is being discussed, so the outside links act as descriptors, which I would think would be the reason and purpose that outside-garden links are asked for.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 14:59, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think I have said enough of what I want to say. §§ Dharmadhyaksha§§ { Talk / Edits} 15:46, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- That wall-gardened reason seems incorrect per the standalone nobility this article achieves through an entire subsection and link in the
Spiritual evolution article, where this topic fits into and adds to the article's subject. The links in the article itself further define what is being discussed, so the outside links act as descriptors, which I would think would be the reason and purpose that outside-garden links are asked for.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 14:59, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- My reason is same that this has no notability outside Meher Baba's connection. Read the article; it has nothing from outside world. It only talks about the theory that baba proposed. He draws connections with other theories; but that's again what he says. This is the walled garden in the sense I explained above; which might not be what others interpret from the essay. But in short, the topic has no standalone notability outside Baba's connection. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 13:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- Redirect/Merge to Meher Baba (preferably to the Teachings section). A standalone article would need enough independent references to pass GNG. This is one article which I think is unlikely to be expanded with information from third party sources. It reads more like an "in-universe" fandom article and is a good candidate to redirect to the main article. At most, a sentence or two could be merged if required.-- DreamLinker ( talk) 13:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The article is well sourced with independent references (see the first 'Keep' comment above). This isn't an in-universe fandom page but the sourced description of god consciousness -- a topic discussed and described by many notable philosophers, religious figures, human potential teachers, yogis, and others -- by a notable individual who took the time to study and report on the topic. Randy Kryn ( talk) 19:28, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that there are references, I disagree that these are enough to write out a full fledged article and establish notability for the same. Vanamonde93 has mentioned a great solution below where we could merge these smaller article into one article dedicated to the philosophy of Meher Baba, which is notable as a whole. I am willing to support that.-- DreamLinker ( talk) 03:22, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- My first preference would be for someone to write an article titled "Philosophy of Meher Baba" or equivalent, and merge all these spinoffs into that. There isn't enough material for a standalone article, but obviously his teachings as a whole were notable, and that would prevent his biography from being overwhelmed with this material. Failing that, I would recomment a redirect to Meher Baba, because of the absence of substantive information in reliable sources independent of the subject. Vanamonde ( Talk) 19:22, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think this is a great solution.-- DreamLinker ( talk) 03:19, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Meher Baba#Teachings. Whether to merge anything remains open for discussion. Sandstein 17:33, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
God-realization (Meher Baba)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- God-realization (Meher Baba) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Sourcing looks impressive at first glances but barring Cohen it's either sourced to Meher Baba himself or publications by follower-trustees or random non-independent websites.
Not seeing any significant coverage of the concept apart from trivial mentions; delete, please. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG converse 16:55, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting. Thought you were striking. As to nom, redirect to Meher Baba. Merge what is best-sourced if anything not redundant. Must be some lines on this in a section to be made the landing spot. Hyperbolick ( talk) 17:42, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Keep per sources used: the Cohen book published by
Harper & Row (a reputable publisher), the vetted and published Emory University Ph.D. doctoral dissertation, and the Purdom book published by
George Allen & Unwin (a reputable publisher). Meher Baba's own book
God Speaks published by
Dodd, Mead & Co. (a reputable publisher) is then used to describe the concept, which I would think is acceptable given the number of good sources already used on the page. I may now be told that people who write about someone they like can't be used as sources, even if published and vetted by reputable publishers. I've been threatened to be taken to ANI over my actions on these Baba deletion pages, and called incompetent on my talk page by an established editor. But I still must ask, what is exactly wrong with the PhD. paper and the books mentioned above, I thought reputable publishers who vet their material are used as sources on Wikipedia. It's lucky I've got one of those fake trophy fishes that sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy" (which is the closest I've come to being a follower of Meher Baba).
Randy Kryn (
talk) 22:00, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
- Appreciate sources but being Meher Baba’s philosophy, why not incorporate into his page? Hyperbolick ( talk) 04:13, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
- PhD dissertations are not reliable sources usually, and the publication came of a non-independent house-press.
- Meher Baba's own book is reliable for documenting what Meher Baba said and certainly does not allude to the notability of any concepts, contained therein.
- Purdom is quite non-independent and his contribution to the case of notability, is borderline. ∯WBG converse 07:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Same problem of WP:WALLEDGARDEN exists with this article and Mandali (Meher Baba), New Life (Meher Baba) and Perfect Master (Meher Baba). all maybe merged into Meher Baba or separate article on his teachings/concepts can be made in case the merging isnt feasible due to article size constraints. §§ Dharmadhyaksha§§ { Talk / Edits} 10:03, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
- This article has nothing to do with WP:WALLEDGARDEN, an essay which is summarized: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia. Don't create a group of articles that exclusively link to each other." This article has many unwalled-garden outgoing and incoming links. These can be easily seen by reading the article and noticing the outgoing links, and then clicking on the 'What links here' topic which appears (at least in Monobook) on the left-hand sidebar. Randy Kryn ( talk) 02:44, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the essence of the essay is that there shouldn't be standalone article which are just related to each other and which can be merged into. It does not mean that one should check the "What links here" and be happy that something turns out. Just for the sake of linking, one can always
disregard MOS, give wrong
piped links and so on. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 03:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- No, the essence of the essay is as summarized in the "Summary" box at the top of the page: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia. Don't create a group of articles that exclusively link to each other." The page has links to many articles outside of Baba related pages, and has many incoming links outside of links to Baba related articles. "Walled garden" does not apply in this case.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 20:30, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
-
Randy Kryn, pray provide some of those
many incoming links
from this list. I am seeing 4 links from articles within this Meher-baba-garden, 3 from out of the garden and 1 from a dis-amb page. ∯WBG converse 07:31, 8 October 2019 (UTC)- "Pray" seems the right word here, as the concept of God-realization is present in many practices and instructional spiritual teachings. A state of mind or an actual personal experience with whatever people define as the "Divine" (yoga, for instance, means "yoke" or "union with God" or "union with the divine").
- It seems Meher Baba calls this state of mind or being "God-realization". Appropriate links to this page include the term Spiritual evolution, which begins "Spiritual evolution is the philosophical, theological, esoteric or spiritual idea that nature and human beings and/or human culture evolve: either extending from an established cosmological pattern (ascent), or in accordance with certain pre-established potentials." The page Plane (esotericism)'s short description is "A subtle state, level, or region of reality", and Involution (esoterism) says "In some instances it refers to a process that occurs prior to evolution and gives rise to the cosmos, in others an aspect of evolution, and still others a process that follows the completion of evolution in the human form."
- These pages provide links to this page, with a key page Spiritual evolution pointing to Baba's contributing thoughts to the concept. The walled garden essay calls for incoming links (its summary again: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia") - and three good links fulfill this requirement. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
-
Randy Kryn, pray provide some of those
- No, the essence of the essay is as summarized in the "Summary" box at the top of the page: "Articles should have outgoing and incoming links to the wider encyclopedia. Don't create a group of articles that exclusively link to each other." The page has links to many articles outside of Baba related pages, and has many incoming links outside of links to Baba related articles. "Walled garden" does not apply in this case.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 20:30, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the essence of the essay is that there shouldn't be standalone article which are just related to each other and which can be merged into. It does not mean that one should check the "What links here" and be happy that something turns out. Just for the sake of linking, one can always
disregard MOS, give wrong
piped links and so on. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 03:55, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:49, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 18:49, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
- Please do not remove this page from the Meher Baba template, as the nominator did in this edit, I assume in good faith, on 8 October with the edit summary "take out of template for a cause". Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:38, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Would like to clarify, per the information asked above about outside links, that the Spiritual evolution page and the Involution (esoterism) page both have entire sections which describe this topic, and not just a link. Randy Kryn ( talk) 04:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Now the nominator removed the entire section on this topic on Spiritual evolution with this edit with an insulting edit summary to whatever editor added it (the appropriately placed per-topic and on-topic section was added on 15 May, 2011, by user Hoverfish). They also once again removed this page from the Meher Baba template. On the basis of "tampering with the evidence" this AfD should be immediately ended. Randy Kryn ( talk) 12:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
- Delete / Merge (if there is anything to merge) to Meher_Baba#Teachings. §§ Dharmadhyaksha§§ { Talk / Edits} 03:14, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- You pretty much made your 'delete' ivote above, which is how I and possibly Sandstein read it (if it wasn't an ivote then maybe this AfD would have been closed as no consensus instead of relisted twice). Do you have another reason to delete besides the walled-garden, or is this an "I don't like it comment?". Thanks. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- My reason is same that this has no notability outside Meher Baba's connection. Read the article; it has nothing from outside world. It only talks about the theory that baba proposed. He draws connections with other theories; but that's again what he says. This is the walled garden in the sense I explained above; which might not be what others interpret from the essay. But in short, the topic has no standalone notability outside Baba's connection. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 13:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- That wall-gardened reason seems incorrect per the standalone nobility this article achieves through an entire subsection and link in the
Spiritual evolution article, where this topic fits into and adds to the article's subject. The links in the article itself further define what is being discussed, so the outside links act as descriptors, which I would think would be the reason and purpose that outside-garden links are asked for.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 14:59, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think I have said enough of what I want to say. §§ Dharmadhyaksha§§ { Talk / Edits} 15:46, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- That wall-gardened reason seems incorrect per the standalone nobility this article achieves through an entire subsection and link in the
Spiritual evolution article, where this topic fits into and adds to the article's subject. The links in the article itself further define what is being discussed, so the outside links act as descriptors, which I would think would be the reason and purpose that outside-garden links are asked for.
Randy Kryn (
talk) 14:59, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- My reason is same that this has no notability outside Meher Baba's connection. Read the article; it has nothing from outside world. It only talks about the theory that baba proposed. He draws connections with other theories; but that's again what he says. This is the walled garden in the sense I explained above; which might not be what others interpret from the essay. But in short, the topic has no standalone notability outside Baba's connection. §§
Dharmadhyaksha§§ {
Talk /
Edits} 13:44, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
- Redirect/Merge to Meher Baba (preferably to the Teachings section). A standalone article would need enough independent references to pass GNG. This is one article which I think is unlikely to be expanded with information from third party sources. It reads more like an "in-universe" fandom article and is a good candidate to redirect to the main article. At most, a sentence or two could be merged if required.-- DreamLinker ( talk) 13:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- The article is well sourced with independent references (see the first 'Keep' comment above). This isn't an in-universe fandom page but the sourced description of god consciousness -- a topic discussed and described by many notable philosophers, religious figures, human potential teachers, yogis, and others -- by a notable individual who took the time to study and report on the topic. Randy Kryn ( talk) 19:28, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that there are references, I disagree that these are enough to write out a full fledged article and establish notability for the same. Vanamonde93 has mentioned a great solution below where we could merge these smaller article into one article dedicated to the philosophy of Meher Baba, which is notable as a whole. I am willing to support that.-- DreamLinker ( talk) 03:22, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- My first preference would be for someone to write an article titled "Philosophy of Meher Baba" or equivalent, and merge all these spinoffs into that. There isn't enough material for a standalone article, but obviously his teachings as a whole were notable, and that would prevent his biography from being overwhelmed with this material. Failing that, I would recomment a redirect to Meher Baba, because of the absence of substantive information in reliable sources independent of the subject. Vanamonde ( Talk) 19:22, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think this is a great solution.-- DreamLinker ( talk) 03:19, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.