- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Flat Rock Park, Indiana
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- Flat Rock Park, Indiana ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
the placenames book calls this a "village", but it is in fact a subdivision started in the early 1960s and then enlarged considerably sometime before the mid 1980s. All this I learned from maps and aerials; GHits are all either clickbait, gazetteers, or passing references. Just not a notable place. Mangoe ( talk) 03:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Indiana. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Columbus Township, Bartholomew County, Indiana, of which it is part and is listed, per Wikipedia:NGEO guidelines, If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it." Djflem ( talk) 05:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete This should be removed from Columbus Township, Bartholomew County, Indiana because it's not an "unincorporated town", it's just another generic housing development. Reywas92 Talk 14:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Just a housing tract on the outskirts of Columbus from what I can find. Also confusing because there is a Flat Rock Park in Columbus, Georgia as well. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 16:42, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Is easily demonstrated to be a neighborhood in columbus. (
https://books.google.com/books?id=_u4bAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=flat+rock+park+indiana&article_id=6439,1113918&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNwbuHx-2EAxUuwskDHZuyCdQQ6wF6BAg-EAE#v=onepage&q=flat%20rock%20park%20indiana&f=false)
James.folsom (
talk)
01:28, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Then why wouldn't one follow Wikipedia guidelines in cited
Wikipedia:NGEO? 21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Djflem (
talk)
21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- WP:Snowball James.folsom ( talk) 22:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Actually,
the reason why, why should I when nobody else does?Because I'm tired of people selectively cherry picking the parts of WP:Geoland that suits their agenda, while claiming AFD precedent to explain the parts they ignore. If people are not going to read it and follow it, and nobody is going to enforce it, then why pay any attention to it all? James.folsom ( talk) 22:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Then why wouldn't one follow Wikipedia guidelines in cited
Wikipedia:NGEO? 21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Djflem (
talk)
21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment That 1800's reference to Flat Rock Park is still bugging me though. So if there are any thoughts. I haven't found anything yet. The earliest mentions I found were 1957 realestate ads for the early lots in the housing development, and I can't find the GNIS source for this. Prior to 1957, It just Flat Rock township.
James.folsom (
talk)
01:28, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Here's the source that GNIS used. The map doesn't show anything at the coords given in the article, and county history there doesn't mention it. If GNIS pick up the township as a town, they missed the coords by alot. https://mdon.library.pfw.edu/digital/collection/cc_fw_hist/id/6628/rec/8331 James.folsom ( talk) 02:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete A neighbourhood which fails GNG - it looks from historic maps like it was or is an unincorporated neighbourhood but is now clearly a part of Columbus, Indiana. There's nothing to merge. SportingFlyer T· C 01:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:GEOLAND, reliable source was cited in the article since 2014, when the article was created. The source, "From Needmore to Prosperity : Hoosier place names in folklore and history" was published in 1995, which long predates this article, identifies the location as "Flat Rock Park (Bartholomew). This village was named for Flat Rock Creek, now Flatrock River. A variant name is Flat Rock Park North. Cf. Flat Rock" . This book was published by the Indiana University Press, which I believe to be a credible source. RecycledPixels ( talk) 02:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is the issue: a source isn't "reliable" when it isn't correct. It's clear from the maps and aerials that it didn't exist at all until the late 1950s (a 1960 aerial shows the first houses built) and that it is a typical tract house development of the period, and not a village in the conventional sense. These place names books are of varying quality to begin with, but they also suffer from some of the same issues that GNIS has, brought on by sheer volume and the tendency to use default classifications when there isn't something specific. I'm willing to assume that they are accurate as to the naming, since after all that's their purpose. But I take their descriptions of the places with a grain of salt, especially when evidence on the ground is against them. It's possible there was some previous place at the same location with the same name, but that needs more proof than just inference from a place names listing. And we have held subdivisions to GNG levels of notability.
Mangoe (
talk)
18:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't believe there was a prior place, I always make sure. I made extra sure on this one too, just because I knew that lame unsourced claim in that source attached to the article was going to get mentioned by somebody. I looked at alot of really old plats and that space was always empty until 1930 when a small housing cluster had been built. The newspapers for the area don't even mention the place until 1950s when the lots started going up for sale earnest. I just wish I could figure out what GNIS saw in that book that became a town. Because the maps in that book just show empty space there. I remember something I saw in the papers recently that made me think these population numbers in old gazetteers may be coming from tax records, and whatever system of naming the countryside for tax collection purposes is getting picked up as towns? James.folsom ( talk) 23:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is the issue: a source isn't "reliable" when it isn't correct. It's clear from the maps and aerials that it didn't exist at all until the late 1950s (a 1960 aerial shows the first houses built) and that it is a typical tract house development of the period, and not a village in the conventional sense. These place names books are of varying quality to begin with, but they also suffer from some of the same issues that GNIS has, brought on by sheer volume and the tendency to use default classifications when there isn't something specific. I'm willing to assume that they are accurate as to the naming, since after all that's their purpose. But I take their descriptions of the places with a grain of salt, especially when evidence on the ground is against them. It's possible there was some previous place at the same location with the same name, but that needs more proof than just inference from a place names listing. And we have held subdivisions to GNG levels of notability.
Mangoe (
talk)
18:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: A Newspapers.com search returns over 3,200 hits for "Flat Rock Park" in Indiana. At first glance, most of these appear to be property addresses, and not anything of substance. From 1900 to 1950, there are 14 hits, mostly appearing to refer to places in other counties.
BD2412
T
22:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- If you narrow it down to only the county it's 3160, There are alot more real estate ads than you'd expect. Random sampling of that seems to show 50 years of passing news mentions and home sales in the subdivision. It's been quiet since around 2000 though. James.folsom ( talk) 23:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. — Ganesha811 ( talk) 00:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
Flat Rock Park, Indiana
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Flat Rock Park, Indiana ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
the placenames book calls this a "village", but it is in fact a subdivision started in the early 1960s and then enlarged considerably sometime before the mid 1980s. All this I learned from maps and aerials; GHits are all either clickbait, gazetteers, or passing references. Just not a notable place. Mangoe ( talk) 03:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Indiana. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:02, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Columbus Township, Bartholomew County, Indiana, of which it is part and is listed, per Wikipedia:NGEO guidelines, If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the informal place should be included in the more general article on the legally recognized populated place or administrative subdivision that contains it." Djflem ( talk) 05:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete This should be removed from Columbus Township, Bartholomew County, Indiana because it's not an "unincorporated town", it's just another generic housing development. Reywas92 Talk 14:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Just a housing tract on the outskirts of Columbus from what I can find. Also confusing because there is a Flat Rock Park in Columbus, Georgia as well. WeirdNAnnoyed ( talk) 16:42, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Is easily demonstrated to be a neighborhood in columbus. (
https://books.google.com/books?id=_u4bAAAAIBAJ&pg=PA8&dq=flat+rock+park+indiana&article_id=6439,1113918&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNwbuHx-2EAxUuwskDHZuyCdQQ6wF6BAg-EAE#v=onepage&q=flat%20rock%20park%20indiana&f=false)
James.folsom (
talk)
01:28, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Then why wouldn't one follow Wikipedia guidelines in cited
Wikipedia:NGEO? 21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Djflem (
talk)
21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- WP:Snowball James.folsom ( talk) 22:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Actually,
the reason why, why should I when nobody else does?Because I'm tired of people selectively cherry picking the parts of WP:Geoland that suits their agenda, while claiming AFD precedent to explain the parts they ignore. If people are not going to read it and follow it, and nobody is going to enforce it, then why pay any attention to it all? James.folsom ( talk) 22:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Then why wouldn't one follow Wikipedia guidelines in cited
Wikipedia:NGEO? 21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Djflem (
talk)
21:58, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment That 1800's reference to Flat Rock Park is still bugging me though. So if there are any thoughts. I haven't found anything yet. The earliest mentions I found were 1957 realestate ads for the early lots in the housing development, and I can't find the GNIS source for this. Prior to 1957, It just Flat Rock township.
James.folsom (
talk)
01:28, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Here's the source that GNIS used. The map doesn't show anything at the coords given in the article, and county history there doesn't mention it. If GNIS pick up the township as a town, they missed the coords by alot. https://mdon.library.pfw.edu/digital/collection/cc_fw_hist/id/6628/rec/8331 James.folsom ( talk) 02:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Delete A neighbourhood which fails GNG - it looks from historic maps like it was or is an unincorporated neighbourhood but is now clearly a part of Columbus, Indiana. There's nothing to merge. SportingFlyer T· C 01:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per WP:GEOLAND, reliable source was cited in the article since 2014, when the article was created. The source, "From Needmore to Prosperity : Hoosier place names in folklore and history" was published in 1995, which long predates this article, identifies the location as "Flat Rock Park (Bartholomew). This village was named for Flat Rock Creek, now Flatrock River. A variant name is Flat Rock Park North. Cf. Flat Rock" . This book was published by the Indiana University Press, which I believe to be a credible source. RecycledPixels ( talk) 02:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is the issue: a source isn't "reliable" when it isn't correct. It's clear from the maps and aerials that it didn't exist at all until the late 1950s (a 1960 aerial shows the first houses built) and that it is a typical tract house development of the period, and not a village in the conventional sense. These place names books are of varying quality to begin with, but they also suffer from some of the same issues that GNIS has, brought on by sheer volume and the tendency to use default classifications when there isn't something specific. I'm willing to assume that they are accurate as to the naming, since after all that's their purpose. But I take their descriptions of the places with a grain of salt, especially when evidence on the ground is against them. It's possible there was some previous place at the same location with the same name, but that needs more proof than just inference from a place names listing. And we have held subdivisions to GNG levels of notability.
Mangoe (
talk)
18:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't believe there was a prior place, I always make sure. I made extra sure on this one too, just because I knew that lame unsourced claim in that source attached to the article was going to get mentioned by somebody. I looked at alot of really old plats and that space was always empty until 1930 when a small housing cluster had been built. The newspapers for the area don't even mention the place until 1950s when the lots started going up for sale earnest. I just wish I could figure out what GNIS saw in that book that became a town. Because the maps in that book just show empty space there. I remember something I saw in the papers recently that made me think these population numbers in old gazetteers may be coming from tax records, and whatever system of naming the countryside for tax collection purposes is getting picked up as towns? James.folsom ( talk) 23:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- This is the issue: a source isn't "reliable" when it isn't correct. It's clear from the maps and aerials that it didn't exist at all until the late 1950s (a 1960 aerial shows the first houses built) and that it is a typical tract house development of the period, and not a village in the conventional sense. These place names books are of varying quality to begin with, but they also suffer from some of the same issues that GNIS has, brought on by sheer volume and the tendency to use default classifications when there isn't something specific. I'm willing to assume that they are accurate as to the naming, since after all that's their purpose. But I take their descriptions of the places with a grain of salt, especially when evidence on the ground is against them. It's possible there was some previous place at the same location with the same name, but that needs more proof than just inference from a place names listing. And we have held subdivisions to GNG levels of notability.
Mangoe (
talk)
18:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: A Newspapers.com search returns over 3,200 hits for "Flat Rock Park" in Indiana. At first glance, most of these appear to be property addresses, and not anything of substance. From 1900 to 1950, there are 14 hits, mostly appearing to refer to places in other counties.
BD2412
T
22:08, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- If you narrow it down to only the county it's 3160, There are alot more real estate ads than you'd expect. Random sampling of that seems to show 50 years of passing news mentions and home sales in the subdivision. It's been quiet since around 2000 though. James.folsom ( talk) 23:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.