- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 08:48, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Estonian Science Fiction Association
- Estonian Science Fiction Association ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Contested prod. An annual convention which attracts a whopping 100 people speaks for the notability of the organization. No citations in current article. Non-notable association. Searches in News, Highbeam, and Newspapers returned zero results. Books returned some hits, but all appeared to be either trivial mentions, or mirrors of this wikipedia stub. Onel5969 TT me 11:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 03:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 03:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 03:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete unless it can be improved. SwisterTwister talk 05:44, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete, no coverage here beyond mentions in blogs and trade and personal websites : Noyster (talk), 11:57, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete – Does not meet WP:N, verified after several source searches. North America 1000 00:17, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Keep - Looks notable to science fiction of this nation. The Estonian name gets a few hits at news Estonia's a fairly small nation, and its language isn't English, so yeah you're not going to find a whole lot. But they apparently give awards even American writers notice.-- T. Anthony ( talk) 02:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Or, as an alternative, I could support deleting this but making an article on Estonian science fiction and mention this group in that article.-- T. Anthony ( talk) 02:12, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:28, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:28, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Explanation (why to keep) - I am the author of this Estonian Science Fiction Association text and i want to explain a bit. Like T. Anthony already said Estonian sci-fi club and community uses mostly estonian language and its official international name Estonian Science Fiction Association is not widely used because inside the country we use estonian version "Eesti Ulmeühing" ("ulme" is word for the science fiction). In addition to that Estonian sci-fi community is quite big and strong organization but unluckily a little-known in the wide world and does not have a connections to other foreign clubs/scenes. And this caused the problem that searches in English news, highbeam, and newspapers returned zero results. I can share tons of links to Estonian webs, but these are in estonia language and therefore usless for english wiki readers. -- Metsavana ( talk) 16:48, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete Metsavana, I'm sympathetic, but @en Wikipedia is not to be used to promote your organization. That goes against our guidelines wp:promo. We have specific rules for organization notability wp:corp and we have to follow them for everyone. You can, however, add it to the List_of_science_fiction_conventions with a link. That would be a logical place for people to look, since they won't know the name of your convention in order to search for it. LaMona ( talk) 03:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- question When informing world about the existence of Estonian sc-fi scene is promote then i am guilty. Do I understand correctly that in English Wikipedia should have only in English-speaking web existing and mentioned things? Perhaps I just miss the en.wikipedia.org principle. Metsavana ( talk) 12:20, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - Not at all Metsavana - it is simply a question of notability. It would make no difference if this article was about the Arizona Science Fiction Association. If it doesn't meet notability criteria (see WP:GNG and in this case, since it's an organization, WP:NORG). BTW, there is a Baja Arizona Science Fiction Association, which is not notable enough for its own article. Onel5969 TT me 13:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- The thing is we have an article for TusCon, which is "presented every November by the Baja Arizona Science Fiction Association (BASFA)." So do you mean an article on Estcon would be better? Also we do have SF Minnesota, Science Fiction South Africa, SFera, Silesian Fantasy Club, and Turku Science Fiction Society. If this group can be shown to be similarly important to science fiction in Estonia why is that not notable? Should we change Outline of science fiction#Science_fiction_awards to limit it to larger nations?-- T. Anthony ( talk) 18:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - A
WP:OSE argument not germane to the discussion. Feel free to research those articles and nom any of them for AfD if they don't meet the notability criteria, as this article clearly doesn't.
Onel5969
TT me 00:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- OSE is an essay, not a guideline or anything. Perhaps things have changed, but traditionally an organization being nationally significant was significance. There are sources in Estonian.--
T. Anthony (
talk) 02:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Never said it was a "guideline or anything". Simply said that it should be consulted for guidance in this instance, which, if you read it, it says in its opening paragraph. It's totally appropriate based on your argument. And you still don't address the lack of notability of the group in the article. Regardless, take it easy.
Onel5969
TT me 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- It tends to be harder to show notability of things in small non-English speaking nations. There are articles in Postimees. [1] [2] Although I didn't find anything in The Baltic Times so maybe it would make sense to delete this and just have an Estonian science fiction article instead.-- T. Anthony ( talk) 08:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Never said it was a "guideline or anything". Simply said that it should be consulted for guidance in this instance, which, if you read it, it says in its opening paragraph. It's totally appropriate based on your argument. And you still don't address the lack of notability of the group in the article. Regardless, take it easy.
Onel5969
TT me 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- OSE is an essay, not a guideline or anything. Perhaps things have changed, but traditionally an organization being nationally significant was significance. There are sources in Estonian.--
T. Anthony (
talk) 02:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Black Kite (talk) 08:48, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
Estonian Science Fiction Association
- Estonian Science Fiction Association ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Contested prod. An annual convention which attracts a whopping 100 people speaks for the notability of the organization. No citations in current article. Non-notable association. Searches in News, Highbeam, and Newspapers returned zero results. Books returned some hits, but all appeared to be either trivial mentions, or mirrors of this wikipedia stub. Onel5969 TT me 11:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 03:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 03:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. North America 1000 03:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete unless it can be improved. SwisterTwister talk 05:44, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete, no coverage here beyond mentions in blogs and trade and personal websites : Noyster (talk), 11:57, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete – Does not meet WP:N, verified after several source searches. North America 1000 00:17, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Keep - Looks notable to science fiction of this nation. The Estonian name gets a few hits at news Estonia's a fairly small nation, and its language isn't English, so yeah you're not going to find a whole lot. But they apparently give awards even American writers notice.-- T. Anthony ( talk) 02:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Or, as an alternative, I could support deleting this but making an article on Estonian science fiction and mention this group in that article.-- T. Anthony ( talk) 02:12, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:28, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 19:28, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
- Explanation (why to keep) - I am the author of this Estonian Science Fiction Association text and i want to explain a bit. Like T. Anthony already said Estonian sci-fi club and community uses mostly estonian language and its official international name Estonian Science Fiction Association is not widely used because inside the country we use estonian version "Eesti Ulmeühing" ("ulme" is word for the science fiction). In addition to that Estonian sci-fi community is quite big and strong organization but unluckily a little-known in the wide world and does not have a connections to other foreign clubs/scenes. And this caused the problem that searches in English news, highbeam, and newspapers returned zero results. I can share tons of links to Estonian webs, but these are in estonia language and therefore usless for english wiki readers. -- Metsavana ( talk) 16:48, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
- Delete Metsavana, I'm sympathetic, but @en Wikipedia is not to be used to promote your organization. That goes against our guidelines wp:promo. We have specific rules for organization notability wp:corp and we have to follow them for everyone. You can, however, add it to the List_of_science_fiction_conventions with a link. That would be a logical place for people to look, since they won't know the name of your convention in order to search for it. LaMona ( talk) 03:33, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- question When informing world about the existence of Estonian sc-fi scene is promote then i am guilty. Do I understand correctly that in English Wikipedia should have only in English-speaking web existing and mentioned things? Perhaps I just miss the en.wikipedia.org principle. Metsavana ( talk) 12:20, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - Not at all Metsavana - it is simply a question of notability. It would make no difference if this article was about the Arizona Science Fiction Association. If it doesn't meet notability criteria (see WP:GNG and in this case, since it's an organization, WP:NORG). BTW, there is a Baja Arizona Science Fiction Association, which is not notable enough for its own article. Onel5969 TT me 13:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- The thing is we have an article for TusCon, which is "presented every November by the Baja Arizona Science Fiction Association (BASFA)." So do you mean an article on Estcon would be better? Also we do have SF Minnesota, Science Fiction South Africa, SFera, Silesian Fantasy Club, and Turku Science Fiction Society. If this group can be shown to be similarly important to science fiction in Estonia why is that not notable? Should we change Outline of science fiction#Science_fiction_awards to limit it to larger nations?-- T. Anthony ( talk) 18:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - A
WP:OSE argument not germane to the discussion. Feel free to research those articles and nom any of them for AfD if they don't meet the notability criteria, as this article clearly doesn't.
Onel5969
TT me 00:58, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- OSE is an essay, not a guideline or anything. Perhaps things have changed, but traditionally an organization being nationally significant was significance. There are sources in Estonian.--
T. Anthony (
talk) 02:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Never said it was a "guideline or anything". Simply said that it should be consulted for guidance in this instance, which, if you read it, it says in its opening paragraph. It's totally appropriate based on your argument. And you still don't address the lack of notability of the group in the article. Regardless, take it easy.
Onel5969
TT me 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- It tends to be harder to show notability of things in small non-English speaking nations. There are articles in Postimees. [1] [2] Although I didn't find anything in The Baltic Times so maybe it would make sense to delete this and just have an Estonian science fiction article instead.-- T. Anthony ( talk) 08:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Never said it was a "guideline or anything". Simply said that it should be consulted for guidance in this instance, which, if you read it, it says in its opening paragraph. It's totally appropriate based on your argument. And you still don't address the lack of notability of the group in the article. Regardless, take it easy.
Onel5969
TT me 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- OSE is an essay, not a guideline or anything. Perhaps things have changed, but traditionally an organization being nationally significant was significance. There are sources in Estonian.--
T. Anthony (
talk) 02:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.