- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) N0nsensical.system (err0r?) (.log) 09:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
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- English Village, Erbil ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable "housing compound"/office park in Kurdistan. No WP:NBUILD distinction. Julietdeltalima (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. Julietdeltalima (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Meets the second bullet point of
WP:NBUILD (in my opinion) due to economic, architectural and social importance, but I admit I failed to add the numerous mainstream media sources like
Daily Mail,
New York Times,
Financial Times or books like
I Have Iraq in My Shoe when I made it back in 2017. I can do so now.
· • SUM1 • · (
talk)
21:23, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I removed The Sun as a deprecated source; the Daily Mail wouldn't count either, as it too is deprecated. Not sure on notability of the topic, so I'll keep to just this comment -
David Gerard (
talk)
22:20, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Replaced with a News.com.au and GQ Australia source. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 23:30, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I removed The Sun as a deprecated source; the Daily Mail wouldn't count either, as it too is deprecated. Not sure on notability of the topic, so I'll keep to just this comment -
David Gerard (
talk)
22:20, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. With 420 villas over 26 hectares, this is more like a substantial village than a office park. See WP:GEOLAND for why even relatively small settlements are notable. Greenshed ( talk) 22:03, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- But is it really a "legally recognized" place/"settlement", or just a housing/office development? Does that mean that every master-planned community is sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article, because it's geographically not minuscule and a lot of people live in it? There are at least dozens of much larger comparable residential/retail/office planned, named neighborhoods in my (U.S.) city; I guess they're "legally recognized" places in the sense that the county lets them have their preferred signage and street names, but they're not on any kind of independent map (i.e. a map published by a mapping agency or map publisher, versus a map published by the local association of real estate agents for the benefit of house-hunters).
- As for English Village (which is indeed the name of a master-planned neighborhood [that doesn't have a Wikipedia article!] in my childhood hometown), I'm not readily finding any secondary sources that indicate that it's actually of Wikipedia-notable significance. Being mentioned in the NYT as a place where expatriates live, with no further discussion, seems no different than being mentioned in a wistful list of the names of exits off a local limited-access road ("We drove past Charleston, Sparkman, Hershberger, and Enfield, the thoroughfares of my youth..."). -
Julietdeltalima
(talk)
01:10, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Following on from what I wrote above,
this source says "English village was indeed a village."
Greenshed (
talk)
20:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- What's your view on the reliability of this source? I'm undecided. This seems to have been a self-/vanity-published memoir. -
Julietdeltalima
(talk)
20:37, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure I'd use it in the article but I was using it here for the purposes of establishing notability (on the basis that it is village-esque). I certainly don't think that the quote is a falsehood. More generally, even if we accept that it is not legally recognized (not sure if legal recognition is the No. 1 priority for the Iraqi government right now) then we're into using judgement. I maintain that being like a village is relevant in the spirit of the rules. Additionally, quoting WP:GEOLAND, "Populated places without legal recognition are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG." Therefore, at worst, we are looking for significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The FT article A piece of England booms in Iraqi Kurdistan seems to do that. Greenshed ( talk) 22:16, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- What's your view on the reliability of this source? I'm undecided. This seems to have been a self-/vanity-published memoir. -
Julietdeltalima
(talk)
20:37, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Following on from what I wrote above,
this source says "English village was indeed a village."
Greenshed (
talk)
20:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- comment The article seems confusing as to if it is a housing place or business park. First, it says "English Village is a British-built luxury housing compound" and "English Village contains 420 villas." But then it also says "the vast majority of which are used as offices for companies." Villas are a specific thing for residential though. If its 420 houses I think that would be more notable then 420ish office buildings. As the place is in Iraq, it would be interesting to know what exactly constitutes an official subdivision there. This place was built by Britain in 2004 during the Iraq war. So, its probably not a government sanctioned, legally recognized, planned community. But then at the same time its likely more complicated then that, but who knows how you would even find out. So, I don't know. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
06:50, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what's confusing about it. It's a neighbourhood of 420 houses, the vast majority of which are used as offices for companies. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 21:33, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Just so you know, this is how big it is within Erbil (Google Maps). You decide if that makes it notable enough. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 21:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Meets WP:GNG per This Financial Times piece (syndicated there for free reading), this book and this book, where it is discussed in sufficient detail.---- Pontificalibus 06:55, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Where in your first source does it say its from the Financial Times? Your second reference is just a quick reference about how the author doesn't want to walk there. Which really isn't notable. Your third source appears to talk about the place English Village is located in, but it gets a paragraph mention and its hardly sufficient. Especially on its own. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
07:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Six lines down in the first sources it says " Source : F.T " Greenshed ( talk) 22:05, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Reading all this makes me wonder why Amerikamura ("American Village", Japan) hasn't yet been nominated for deletion. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 21:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 14:05, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 14:24, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. (non-admin closure) N0nsensical.system (err0r?) (.log) 09:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- English Village, Erbil ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Non-notable "housing compound"/office park in Kurdistan. No WP:NBUILD distinction. Julietdeltalima (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. Julietdeltalima (talk) 21:07, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Meets the second bullet point of
WP:NBUILD (in my opinion) due to economic, architectural and social importance, but I admit I failed to add the numerous mainstream media sources like
Daily Mail,
New York Times,
Financial Times or books like
I Have Iraq in My Shoe when I made it back in 2017. I can do so now.
· • SUM1 • · (
talk)
21:23, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I removed The Sun as a deprecated source; the Daily Mail wouldn't count either, as it too is deprecated. Not sure on notability of the topic, so I'll keep to just this comment -
David Gerard (
talk)
22:20, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Replaced with a News.com.au and GQ Australia source. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 23:30, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment I removed The Sun as a deprecated source; the Daily Mail wouldn't count either, as it too is deprecated. Not sure on notability of the topic, so I'll keep to just this comment -
David Gerard (
talk)
22:20, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep. With 420 villas over 26 hectares, this is more like a substantial village than a office park. See WP:GEOLAND for why even relatively small settlements are notable. Greenshed ( talk) 22:03, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- But is it really a "legally recognized" place/"settlement", or just a housing/office development? Does that mean that every master-planned community is sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article, because it's geographically not minuscule and a lot of people live in it? There are at least dozens of much larger comparable residential/retail/office planned, named neighborhoods in my (U.S.) city; I guess they're "legally recognized" places in the sense that the county lets them have their preferred signage and street names, but they're not on any kind of independent map (i.e. a map published by a mapping agency or map publisher, versus a map published by the local association of real estate agents for the benefit of house-hunters).
- As for English Village (which is indeed the name of a master-planned neighborhood [that doesn't have a Wikipedia article!] in my childhood hometown), I'm not readily finding any secondary sources that indicate that it's actually of Wikipedia-notable significance. Being mentioned in the NYT as a place where expatriates live, with no further discussion, seems no different than being mentioned in a wistful list of the names of exits off a local limited-access road ("We drove past Charleston, Sparkman, Hershberger, and Enfield, the thoroughfares of my youth..."). -
Julietdeltalima
(talk)
01:10, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Following on from what I wrote above,
this source says "English village was indeed a village."
Greenshed (
talk)
20:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- What's your view on the reliability of this source? I'm undecided. This seems to have been a self-/vanity-published memoir. -
Julietdeltalima
(talk)
20:37, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure I'd use it in the article but I was using it here for the purposes of establishing notability (on the basis that it is village-esque). I certainly don't think that the quote is a falsehood. More generally, even if we accept that it is not legally recognized (not sure if legal recognition is the No. 1 priority for the Iraqi government right now) then we're into using judgement. I maintain that being like a village is relevant in the spirit of the rules. Additionally, quoting WP:GEOLAND, "Populated places without legal recognition are considered on a case-by-case basis in accordance with the GNG." Therefore, at worst, we are looking for significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The FT article A piece of England booms in Iraqi Kurdistan seems to do that. Greenshed ( talk) 22:16, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- What's your view on the reliability of this source? I'm undecided. This seems to have been a self-/vanity-published memoir. -
Julietdeltalima
(talk)
20:37, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Following on from what I wrote above,
this source says "English village was indeed a village."
Greenshed (
talk)
20:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- comment The article seems confusing as to if it is a housing place or business park. First, it says "English Village is a British-built luxury housing compound" and "English Village contains 420 villas." But then it also says "the vast majority of which are used as offices for companies." Villas are a specific thing for residential though. If its 420 houses I think that would be more notable then 420ish office buildings. As the place is in Iraq, it would be interesting to know what exactly constitutes an official subdivision there. This place was built by Britain in 2004 during the Iraq war. So, its probably not a government sanctioned, legally recognized, planned community. But then at the same time its likely more complicated then that, but who knows how you would even find out. So, I don't know. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
06:50, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what's confusing about it. It's a neighbourhood of 420 houses, the vast majority of which are used as offices for companies. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 21:33, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Just so you know, this is how big it is within Erbil (Google Maps). You decide if that makes it notable enough. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 21:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Keep Meets WP:GNG per This Financial Times piece (syndicated there for free reading), this book and this book, where it is discussed in sufficient detail.---- Pontificalibus 06:55, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Where in your first source does it say its from the Financial Times? Your second reference is just a quick reference about how the author doesn't want to walk there. Which really isn't notable. Your third source appears to talk about the place English Village is located in, but it gets a paragraph mention and its hardly sufficient. Especially on its own. --
Adamant1 (
talk)
07:19, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Six lines down in the first sources it says " Source : F.T " Greenshed ( talk) 22:05, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Comment Reading all this makes me wonder why Amerikamura ("American Village", Japan) hasn't yet been nominated for deletion. · • SUM1 • · ( talk) 21:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple ( talk) 14:05, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp ( talk) 14:24, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.