The result was keep. Based on a careful analysis of the arguments presented, I felt few of the reasons for deletion were compelling from a policy or guideline perspective, and many of the keep arguments were. Many brief comments citing a lack of notability for the article were unaware of the scope of coverage (local vs. national). Although an interesting comment was raised concerning International vs. United States bias, the fundamental question from this argument is: Do we remove content to counteract this bias, or do we attempt to improve coverage in other areas? It is an interesting question, but the location for this discussion is elsewhere. Coverage on a national level remains sufficient for WP:BIO.
Other notabilty concerns revolve around the notability of the target versus the event. As W.Marsh mentions, this can be solved by renaming.
Other arguments for deletion revolve around WP:NOT, particularly that Wikipedia is not a memorial or a news source. These arguments are compellingly refuted by John254's thoughtful commentary. The article does not function as a memorial to individual victims of a larger scale tragedy (cf. Virginia Tech Massacre). Contrast effects are important here when considering the scope and scale of events in real world terms. Neither has a compelling case been made for harm of living persons.
The arguments for keeping are consistent and center around the article's reliable and verifiable sources, and that the scale and scope of these sources confer notability per WP:N (at least to the event, if not the person herself). Although other arguments for keeping do cite articles on other dead white women, and this is apparently an argument that should be avoided according to some essays; the presence of these articles does indicate an overriding consensus for the inclusion of high profile murder victims should they pass the community-determined criteria for notability. IronGargoyle ( talk) 23:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC) reply
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
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joshschr 03:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The extensive media coverage of Emily Sander in multiple reliable sources cited in Emily_Sander#Notes clearly establishes a presumption of the notability of this person pursuant to the criteria established in the general notability guideline. While WP:NOT#MEMORIAL is often misinterpreted to imply that "subjects whose notability is derived solely from the manner of their deaths are not notable for Wikipedia's purposes", the plain language of WP:NOT#MEMORIAL clarifies its purposeA topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.
Thus, WP:NOT#MEMORIAL is a mere restatement of the applicability of Wikipedia's notability guidelines to deceased subjects, and does actually furnish independent grounds for deletion. WP:NOT#NEWS has also been advanced as an argument for deletion. Whatever the merits of ever raising WP:NOT#NEWS in any deletion discussion without claiming serious WP:BLP issues [1], WP:NOT#NEWS clearly does not furnish a valid rationale for deletion here. Indeed, WP:NOT#NEWS expressly states that "topics in the news may also be encyclopedic subjects when the sources are substantial"; the massive media coverage of Emily Sander cited in Emily_Sander#Notes would therefore suggest that this person is, indeed, an "encyclopedic subject". The purely subjective assertions of non-notability advanced by editors supporting deletion of this article fail to outweigh the presumption of notability established via the general notability guideline through objective evidence.Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered.
*Delete. Wannabe porn star gets picked up (or picks up someone) in a bar, leaves with him and gets killed. Where's the notability in that? Cut through the titillation and the voyeuristic element and it is just another sad case of a young life cut short. Let's try to elevate Wikipedia above the level of
The National Enquirer.
Krford
23:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC) Changing to Rename - see below.
reply
First I think think some of the comments on this board are blatantly disrespectful to victims of crimes. Yes Ms. Sander is not the first victim of a crime. Her story is told over and over again in the murders of women everywhere. Besides Children women are the most victimized in society. My wife and three daughters are growing up in a world where Males seem to have horrible control issues. This story was important and continues to be important but not for the reasons most people seem to hang on to. The fact this young lady posed nude on the internet should not be the focus. Yes it probally was a mistake but not one she should die over. This case should stay a topic until the killer is brought to justice. Perhaps not such a big story as it is now but a story none the less. I just hope the porn star accusations will go away. Despite what others may think Emily was not a porn star. She was no more a porn star than a playboy plamate. No one calls those girls porn stars. We live in a world of hypocrites. They call Emily a porn star in the press and go in their own homes and hotels and watch porn movies behind closed doors. Shame on society. Emily was a human being and did not deserve her fate. Good Day! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.129.15.221 ( talk) 21:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The result was keep. Based on a careful analysis of the arguments presented, I felt few of the reasons for deletion were compelling from a policy or guideline perspective, and many of the keep arguments were. Many brief comments citing a lack of notability for the article were unaware of the scope of coverage (local vs. national). Although an interesting comment was raised concerning International vs. United States bias, the fundamental question from this argument is: Do we remove content to counteract this bias, or do we attempt to improve coverage in other areas? It is an interesting question, but the location for this discussion is elsewhere. Coverage on a national level remains sufficient for WP:BIO.
Other notabilty concerns revolve around the notability of the target versus the event. As W.Marsh mentions, this can be solved by renaming.
Other arguments for deletion revolve around WP:NOT, particularly that Wikipedia is not a memorial or a news source. These arguments are compellingly refuted by John254's thoughtful commentary. The article does not function as a memorial to individual victims of a larger scale tragedy (cf. Virginia Tech Massacre). Contrast effects are important here when considering the scope and scale of events in real world terms. Neither has a compelling case been made for harm of living persons.
The arguments for keeping are consistent and center around the article's reliable and verifiable sources, and that the scale and scope of these sources confer notability per WP:N (at least to the event, if not the person herself). Although other arguments for keeping do cite articles on other dead white women, and this is apparently an argument that should be avoided according to some essays; the presence of these articles does indicate an overriding consensus for the inclusion of high profile murder victims should they pass the community-determined criteria for notability. IronGargoyle ( talk) 23:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC) reply
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is
not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has
policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and
consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.
However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end. Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts:{{subst:
spa|username}} ; suspected
canvassed users: {{subst:
canvassed|username}} ; accounts blocked for
sockpuppetry: {{subst:
csm|username}} or {{subst:
csp|username}} . |
joshschr 03:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC) reply
The extensive media coverage of Emily Sander in multiple reliable sources cited in Emily_Sander#Notes clearly establishes a presumption of the notability of this person pursuant to the criteria established in the general notability guideline. While WP:NOT#MEMORIAL is often misinterpreted to imply that "subjects whose notability is derived solely from the manner of their deaths are not notable for Wikipedia's purposes", the plain language of WP:NOT#MEMORIAL clarifies its purposeA topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.
Thus, WP:NOT#MEMORIAL is a mere restatement of the applicability of Wikipedia's notability guidelines to deceased subjects, and does actually furnish independent grounds for deletion. WP:NOT#NEWS has also been advanced as an argument for deletion. Whatever the merits of ever raising WP:NOT#NEWS in any deletion discussion without claiming serious WP:BLP issues [1], WP:NOT#NEWS clearly does not furnish a valid rationale for deletion here. Indeed, WP:NOT#NEWS expressly states that "topics in the news may also be encyclopedic subjects when the sources are substantial"; the massive media coverage of Emily Sander cited in Emily_Sander#Notes would therefore suggest that this person is, indeed, an "encyclopedic subject". The purely subjective assertions of non-notability advanced by editors supporting deletion of this article fail to outweigh the presumption of notability established via the general notability guideline through objective evidence.Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must be notable besides being fondly remembered.
*Delete. Wannabe porn star gets picked up (or picks up someone) in a bar, leaves with him and gets killed. Where's the notability in that? Cut through the titillation and the voyeuristic element and it is just another sad case of a young life cut short. Let's try to elevate Wikipedia above the level of
The National Enquirer.
Krford
23:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC) Changing to Rename - see below.
reply
First I think think some of the comments on this board are blatantly disrespectful to victims of crimes. Yes Ms. Sander is not the first victim of a crime. Her story is told over and over again in the murders of women everywhere. Besides Children women are the most victimized in society. My wife and three daughters are growing up in a world where Males seem to have horrible control issues. This story was important and continues to be important but not for the reasons most people seem to hang on to. The fact this young lady posed nude on the internet should not be the focus. Yes it probally was a mistake but not one she should die over. This case should stay a topic until the killer is brought to justice. Perhaps not such a big story as it is now but a story none the less. I just hope the porn star accusations will go away. Despite what others may think Emily was not a porn star. She was no more a porn star than a playboy plamate. No one calls those girls porn stars. We live in a world of hypocrites. They call Emily a porn star in the press and go in their own homes and hotels and watch porn movies behind closed doors. Shame on society. Emily was a human being and did not deserve her fate. Good Day! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.129.15.221 ( talk) 21:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC) reply