- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Lord Roem ~ ( talk) 04:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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- Dolene ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
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No WP:SIGCOV could be found; fails WP:GNG. Appears to lack legal recognition, fails WP:GEOLAND.
Standalone article not warranted under WP:PAGEDECIDE; duplicates content at Petrich Municipality. I propose redirecting to that article. BilledMammal ( talk) 17:40, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. BilledMammal ( talk) 17:40, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:03, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. What indicates it lacks legal recognition? It's currently a small village, of just 9 people, but appears to be a minor tourist destination (as evident from the results when searching on the web for its Bulgaian name), and it appears to be of historical significance (the Bulgarian Wikipedia article states, with what looks like a good source, that it once had one of the largest fairs in the Ottoman Balkans). –
Uanfala (
talk)
11:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
What indicates it lacks legal recognition?
We don't have a source showing that it has legal recognition - and even if we did, WP:GEOLAND only grants a presumption of notability, not a guarantee of it, and WP:PAGEDECIDE can mean we shouldn't have an article even if the topic is notable. BilledMammal ( talk) 11:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- So you're not basing your claims on anything then? The place is legally recognised as a settlement (naseleno myasto), which shows up in a number of places (such as
this), but it doesn't have its own sub-municipal administrative body (kmetstvo). I don't know which of the two bars we should use here: the latter is too high, the former possibly too low (but not as low as you may expect if your experience is from a country where hamlets or unincorporated communities are more common than in Bulgaria). At any rate, I see enough to warrant a plausible presumption of notability, and I also see enough coverage to believe GNG will be met too. As for the PAGEDECIDE argument that the article
duplicates content at Petrich Municipality
: that was true for only a few hours yesterday, and only because you had just coped that content there [1]. – Uanfala ( talk) 11:24, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- I'm basing my claims on the lack of evidence, and as the burden is on the editor making the positive claim that is a suitable argument - I don't need to prove that sources don't exist, or that the location doesn't have legal recognition, you need to prove that they do or it does.
- The source you have provided is a census report, and doesn't indicate legal recognition.
- I see you have reverted my expansion of that page, on the basis that the source I used is unreliable. Either the source is unreliable, in which case the information also needs to be removed from the
Dolene article, or it is reliable, and should be restored to the
Petrich Municipality. Either way, the
WP:PAGEDECIDE argument applies; for the moment, I have restored my edit; if you want to restore yours please remove the information from both articles.
BilledMammal (
talk)
11:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
The source you have provided is a census report
: this is incorrect.[I]f you want to restore yours please remove the information from both articles
: I would love to be able to update all village articles in this province, but I don't have the time. And I don't think my improvement in one article should be made conditional on making the same improvement in another. – Uanfala ( talk) 11:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)this is incorrect
It is from the national statistics units, and is a register of populations. I believe I am incorrect about it being from the census - it is from 2003, and there was no census conducted in that year - but it still appears to be statistical information and not an indication of legal recognition.And I don't think my improvement in one article should be made conditional on making the same improvement in another.
It isn't. But you cannot use your failure to argue that because Dolene contains the information that you removed as unreliable from Petrich Municipality it cannot be deleted under WP:PAGEDECIDE. BilledMammal ( talk) 12:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- The link was to a register of legally recognised naseleni mesta. Now whether that category is enough to meet the sort of legal recognition assumed in GEOLAND, as I indicated above, is another matter. – Uanfala ( talk) 12:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- So you're not basing your claims on anything then? The place is legally recognised as a settlement (naseleno myasto), which shows up in a number of places (such as
this), but it doesn't have its own sub-municipal administrative body (kmetstvo). I don't know which of the two bars we should use here: the latter is too high, the former possibly too low (but not as low as you may expect if your experience is from a country where hamlets or unincorporated communities are more common than in Bulgaria). At any rate, I see enough to warrant a plausible presumption of notability, and I also see enough coverage to believe GNG will be met too. As for the PAGEDECIDE argument that the article
- Keep it seems to be a settlement with census data per the Romanian Wikipedia. Crouch, Swale ( talk) 18:10, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. The article on Bulgarian Wikipedia would certainly suggest that it had legal recognition at one time, even if it does not today. It seems to have once had a population of 736 with a church and school. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Lord Roem ~ ( talk) 04:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Dolene ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
No WP:SIGCOV could be found; fails WP:GNG. Appears to lack legal recognition, fails WP:GEOLAND.
Standalone article not warranted under WP:PAGEDECIDE; duplicates content at Petrich Municipality. I propose redirecting to that article. BilledMammal ( talk) 17:40, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. BilledMammal ( talk) 17:40, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:03, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. What indicates it lacks legal recognition? It's currently a small village, of just 9 people, but appears to be a minor tourist destination (as evident from the results when searching on the web for its Bulgaian name), and it appears to be of historical significance (the Bulgarian Wikipedia article states, with what looks like a good source, that it once had one of the largest fairs in the Ottoman Balkans). –
Uanfala (
talk)
11:08, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
What indicates it lacks legal recognition?
We don't have a source showing that it has legal recognition - and even if we did, WP:GEOLAND only grants a presumption of notability, not a guarantee of it, and WP:PAGEDECIDE can mean we shouldn't have an article even if the topic is notable. BilledMammal ( talk) 11:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- So you're not basing your claims on anything then? The place is legally recognised as a settlement (naseleno myasto), which shows up in a number of places (such as
this), but it doesn't have its own sub-municipal administrative body (kmetstvo). I don't know which of the two bars we should use here: the latter is too high, the former possibly too low (but not as low as you may expect if your experience is from a country where hamlets or unincorporated communities are more common than in Bulgaria). At any rate, I see enough to warrant a plausible presumption of notability, and I also see enough coverage to believe GNG will be met too. As for the PAGEDECIDE argument that the article
duplicates content at Petrich Municipality
: that was true for only a few hours yesterday, and only because you had just coped that content there [1]. – Uanfala ( talk) 11:24, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- I'm basing my claims on the lack of evidence, and as the burden is on the editor making the positive claim that is a suitable argument - I don't need to prove that sources don't exist, or that the location doesn't have legal recognition, you need to prove that they do or it does.
- The source you have provided is a census report, and doesn't indicate legal recognition.
- I see you have reverted my expansion of that page, on the basis that the source I used is unreliable. Either the source is unreliable, in which case the information also needs to be removed from the
Dolene article, or it is reliable, and should be restored to the
Petrich Municipality. Either way, the
WP:PAGEDECIDE argument applies; for the moment, I have restored my edit; if you want to restore yours please remove the information from both articles.
BilledMammal (
talk)
11:39, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
The source you have provided is a census report
: this is incorrect.[I]f you want to restore yours please remove the information from both articles
: I would love to be able to update all village articles in this province, but I don't have the time. And I don't think my improvement in one article should be made conditional on making the same improvement in another. – Uanfala ( talk) 11:55, 4 February 2023 (UTC)this is incorrect
It is from the national statistics units, and is a register of populations. I believe I am incorrect about it being from the census - it is from 2003, and there was no census conducted in that year - but it still appears to be statistical information and not an indication of legal recognition.And I don't think my improvement in one article should be made conditional on making the same improvement in another.
It isn't. But you cannot use your failure to argue that because Dolene contains the information that you removed as unreliable from Petrich Municipality it cannot be deleted under WP:PAGEDECIDE. BilledMammal ( talk) 12:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)- The link was to a register of legally recognised naseleni mesta. Now whether that category is enough to meet the sort of legal recognition assumed in GEOLAND, as I indicated above, is another matter. – Uanfala ( talk) 12:23, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- So you're not basing your claims on anything then? The place is legally recognised as a settlement (naseleno myasto), which shows up in a number of places (such as
this), but it doesn't have its own sub-municipal administrative body (kmetstvo). I don't know which of the two bars we should use here: the latter is too high, the former possibly too low (but not as low as you may expect if your experience is from a country where hamlets or unincorporated communities are more common than in Bulgaria). At any rate, I see enough to warrant a plausible presumption of notability, and I also see enough coverage to believe GNG will be met too. As for the PAGEDECIDE argument that the article
- Keep it seems to be a settlement with census data per the Romanian Wikipedia. Crouch, Swale ( talk) 18:10, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- Keep. The article on Bulgarian Wikipedia would certainly suggest that it had legal recognition at one time, even if it does not today. It seems to have once had a population of 736 with a church and school. -- Necrothesp ( talk) 13:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.