- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Dittingen Airshow crash ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not really notable, air show crashes happen regularly and do not all need their own articles unless it is something like Shoreham. Blatant reaction to Shoreham. Also fails WP:NOTNEWS Regards, Buttons0603 | talk to me | my contributions | 16:54, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete In the grand scheme of air accidents this is a minor accident, not even an airline accident. Air show stunts cannot go perfect forever. Brandmeister talk 17:57, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete This doesn't sound very notable at all. Plus the article is incomplete.
Versus001 (
talk) 19:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Lack of completion is not a reason for deletion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:46, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep, but if consensus is otherwise, move to Formation Grasshoppers or Dittingen Airshow (or both) and expand accordingly. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:45, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep It's notable because multiple reliable sources cover the event. See:
to name but a few. Also it does not fail WP:NOTNEWS beacuse the article is 1. not journalism, 2. not news reporting on a routine event, 3. not a who's who and 4. not a diary. Just because something is in the news does not automatically make it non-notable. Greenshed ( talk) 22:21, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete. One person killed in a collision between two vehicles. Happens on the roads every day. The fact that the vehicles were planes makes no difference. WWGB ( talk) 23:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - This can be adequately covered in the relevant list and the airport article. Not every accident at an airshow needs an article. Mjroots ( talk) 05:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep That something is common is not a reason to delete. There are several sources. Averater ( talk) 06:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete the existence of news reports does not automatically confer Notability - after all, the media would report a pimple on Kim Kardashian's backside. There is no in-depth coverage of the subject, just "something happened in Switzerland today"-type reports; the BBC report is four sentences long. Here in Australia any fatal light aircraft accident - and many fatal car accidents - will get a similar level of coverage.
YSSYguy (
talk) 13:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Comment There is some in depth reporting in German. See http://www.bzbasel.ch/basel/baselbiet/schock-an-dittinger-flugtagen-zwei-flugzeuge-kollidieren-in-der-luft-129471019. Also your delightful example of the "pimple" is, I would suggest, not really a fair comparison. I very much doubt that the BBC, The Independent and Reuters report on such minor matters. The Press is not a single entity - what counts is distinguishing reliable sources from unreliable ones. Greenshed ( talk) 17:55, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- The report in German is local coverage only; the website has articles about several local car crashes, covering them to a similar level of detail.
YSSYguy (
talk) 00:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Written locally but available internationally. I am not aware of any rule or guideline which bars or discourages the use of reliable local sources. As for the car crashes, their notability or otherwise would need to be judged on their on merits and is not really germane to the question of whether this article should stay (see Wikipedia:Other stuff exists). Greenshed ( talk) 22:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- The report in German is local coverage only; the website has articles about several local car crashes, covering them to a similar level of detail.
YSSYguy (
talk) 00:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete/merge as per Mjroots-- Petebutt ( talk) 14:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete A 'minor' collision, resulting in one fatality, something which happens on the roads each and every day. Can't help but think this article is a reaction to events at Shoreham. PinchHittingLeggy ( talk) 21:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep. Based on German-language sources and others, it appears to me that this incident has gained some notoriety beyond a run-of-the-mill car crash or news report. E.g Neue Zürcher Zeitung and BBC News (There are others as well but I am only citing the ones which I know are likely RS, not being familiar too much with the details of news reliability). The coverage is also not just local.. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 09:40, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the
list of Events-related deletion discussions.
• Gene93k (
talk) 00:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- The BBC article is the same brief four-sentence report already linked a few days ago.
YSSYguy (
talk) 03:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but I don't think that it's routine coverage still - major news media like the BBC usually don't care about traffic accidents and local interest only stories from abroad. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 22:26, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- The BBC article is the same brief four-sentence report already linked a few days ago.
YSSYguy (
talk) 03:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - I apologize if this comes across harsh (Not my intention) but air stunts do go wrong and not everyone of them crashes needs an article, Had it been similar to Shoreham than yeah but in comparison to that this was a very small and non-notable accident. – Davey2010 Talk 18:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- The question is not whether it "needs" an article but whether the article should stay now that it has been created. The notability of the event is principally determined by its coverage in third party reliable sources (including other languages), not by our personal views as to whether it was really that important or not. See above for links to those sources.
Greenshed (
talk) 10:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Christ what am I 5 now ?, I've been here 3 years - I think I know what AFD & reliable sourcing is by now!, My point was that it's a small & non-notable crash (Bar the BBC there's not much coverage anywhere else). –
Davey2010
Talk 14:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Two points. First, just because compared to the worst aviation incidents the tragedy was relatively minor does not make it non-notable. Second, the major items of coverage are more than the BBC. Some of the ones I have found, after not very much searching, are:
- BBC (modest detail)
- Boston Globe (modest detail)
- Blick (in German, intermediate detail)
- The Independent (modest detail)
- Reuters (modest detail)
- Swiss Transportation Safety Investigation Board (In German. Modest detail but the full report will be much more detailed)
- bz Basel (detailed - in German - but this is just as notable as English reporting.)
- Greenshed ( talk) 17:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Two points. First, just because compared to the worst aviation incidents the tragedy was relatively minor does not make it non-notable. Second, the major items of coverage are more than the BBC. Some of the ones I have found, after not very much searching, are:
- Christ what am I 5 now ?, I've been here 3 years - I think I know what AFD & reliable sourcing is by now!, My point was that it's a small & non-notable crash (Bar the BBC there's not much coverage anywhere else). –
Davey2010
Talk 14:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The question is not whether it "needs" an article but whether the article should stay now that it has been created. The notability of the event is principally determined by its coverage in third party reliable sources (including other languages), not by our personal views as to whether it was really that important or not. See above for links to those sources.
Greenshed (
talk) 10:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - in-depth coverage is localized. Notability is also not temporary. A year from now (and like others, I don't want to seem unfeeling) this will be mostly forgotten, and 10 years from now it will barely be a footnote. Onel5969 TT me 13:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Comment No doubt the Swiss Transportation Safety Investigation Board will produce a detailed and publically available report in due course. Greenshed ( talk) 14:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The initial report is at: http://www.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte/D-MSON_D-MUHH.pdf Greenshed ( talk) 14:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep. Wide press coverage. 92.113.204.213 ( talk) 16:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete, not more than news reporting, WP:NOTNEWS. But restore and merge if an article about the Dittingen airfield ( Flugplatz Dittingen) or the Dittingen air show Dittinger Flugtage) is ever written. This Basel newspaper reports that there have been five crashes in the last 35 years of the biennial air show there, so there ought to be material for an article. Sandstein 17:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:22, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Dittingen Airshow crash ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not really notable, air show crashes happen regularly and do not all need their own articles unless it is something like Shoreham. Blatant reaction to Shoreham. Also fails WP:NOTNEWS Regards, Buttons0603 | talk to me | my contributions | 16:54, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete In the grand scheme of air accidents this is a minor accident, not even an airline accident. Air show stunts cannot go perfect forever. Brandmeister talk 17:57, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete This doesn't sound very notable at all. Plus the article is incomplete.
Versus001 (
talk) 19:17, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Lack of completion is not a reason for deletion. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:46, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep, but if consensus is otherwise, move to Formation Grasshoppers or Dittingen Airshow (or both) and expand accordingly. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:45, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep It's notable because multiple reliable sources cover the event. See:
to name but a few. Also it does not fail WP:NOTNEWS beacuse the article is 1. not journalism, 2. not news reporting on a routine event, 3. not a who's who and 4. not a diary. Just because something is in the news does not automatically make it non-notable. Greenshed ( talk) 22:21, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete. One person killed in a collision between two vehicles. Happens on the roads every day. The fact that the vehicles were planes makes no difference. WWGB ( talk) 23:44, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - This can be adequately covered in the relevant list and the airport article. Not every accident at an airshow needs an article. Mjroots ( talk) 05:51, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep That something is common is not a reason to delete. There are several sources. Averater ( talk) 06:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete the existence of news reports does not automatically confer Notability - after all, the media would report a pimple on Kim Kardashian's backside. There is no in-depth coverage of the subject, just "something happened in Switzerland today"-type reports; the BBC report is four sentences long. Here in Australia any fatal light aircraft accident - and many fatal car accidents - will get a similar level of coverage.
YSSYguy (
talk) 13:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Comment There is some in depth reporting in German. See http://www.bzbasel.ch/basel/baselbiet/schock-an-dittinger-flugtagen-zwei-flugzeuge-kollidieren-in-der-luft-129471019. Also your delightful example of the "pimple" is, I would suggest, not really a fair comparison. I very much doubt that the BBC, The Independent and Reuters report on such minor matters. The Press is not a single entity - what counts is distinguishing reliable sources from unreliable ones. Greenshed ( talk) 17:55, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- The report in German is local coverage only; the website has articles about several local car crashes, covering them to a similar level of detail.
YSSYguy (
talk) 00:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Written locally but available internationally. I am not aware of any rule or guideline which bars or discourages the use of reliable local sources. As for the car crashes, their notability or otherwise would need to be judged on their on merits and is not really germane to the question of whether this article should stay (see Wikipedia:Other stuff exists). Greenshed ( talk) 22:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- The report in German is local coverage only; the website has articles about several local car crashes, covering them to a similar level of detail.
YSSYguy (
talk) 00:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete/merge as per Mjroots-- Petebutt ( talk) 14:41, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete A 'minor' collision, resulting in one fatality, something which happens on the roads each and every day. Can't help but think this article is a reaction to events at Shoreham. PinchHittingLeggy ( talk) 21:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep. Based on German-language sources and others, it appears to me that this incident has gained some notoriety beyond a run-of-the-mill car crash or news report. E.g Neue Zürcher Zeitung and BBC News (There are others as well but I am only citing the ones which I know are likely RS, not being familiar too much with the details of news reliability). The coverage is also not just local.. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 09:40, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k ( talk) 00:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the
list of Events-related deletion discussions.
• Gene93k (
talk) 00:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- The BBC article is the same brief four-sentence report already linked a few days ago.
YSSYguy (
talk) 03:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, but I don't think that it's routine coverage still - major news media like the BBC usually don't care about traffic accidents and local interest only stories from abroad. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk, contributions) 22:26, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- The BBC article is the same brief four-sentence report already linked a few days ago.
YSSYguy (
talk) 03:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - I apologize if this comes across harsh (Not my intention) but air stunts do go wrong and not everyone of them crashes needs an article, Had it been similar to Shoreham than yeah but in comparison to that this was a very small and non-notable accident. – Davey2010 Talk 18:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- The question is not whether it "needs" an article but whether the article should stay now that it has been created. The notability of the event is principally determined by its coverage in third party reliable sources (including other languages), not by our personal views as to whether it was really that important or not. See above for links to those sources.
Greenshed (
talk) 10:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Christ what am I 5 now ?, I've been here 3 years - I think I know what AFD & reliable sourcing is by now!, My point was that it's a small & non-notable crash (Bar the BBC there's not much coverage anywhere else). –
Davey2010
Talk 14:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Two points. First, just because compared to the worst aviation incidents the tragedy was relatively minor does not make it non-notable. Second, the major items of coverage are more than the BBC. Some of the ones I have found, after not very much searching, are:
- BBC (modest detail)
- Boston Globe (modest detail)
- Blick (in German, intermediate detail)
- The Independent (modest detail)
- Reuters (modest detail)
- Swiss Transportation Safety Investigation Board (In German. Modest detail but the full report will be much more detailed)
- bz Basel (detailed - in German - but this is just as notable as English reporting.)
- Greenshed ( talk) 17:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Two points. First, just because compared to the worst aviation incidents the tragedy was relatively minor does not make it non-notable. Second, the major items of coverage are more than the BBC. Some of the ones I have found, after not very much searching, are:
- Christ what am I 5 now ?, I've been here 3 years - I think I know what AFD & reliable sourcing is by now!, My point was that it's a small & non-notable crash (Bar the BBC there's not much coverage anywhere else). –
Davey2010
Talk 14:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The question is not whether it "needs" an article but whether the article should stay now that it has been created. The notability of the event is principally determined by its coverage in third party reliable sources (including other languages), not by our personal views as to whether it was really that important or not. See above for links to those sources.
Greenshed (
talk) 10:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete - in-depth coverage is localized. Notability is also not temporary. A year from now (and like others, I don't want to seem unfeeling) this will be mostly forgotten, and 10 years from now it will barely be a footnote. Onel5969 TT me 13:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Comment No doubt the Swiss Transportation Safety Investigation Board will produce a detailed and publically available report in due course. Greenshed ( talk) 14:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The initial report is at: http://www.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte/D-MSON_D-MUHH.pdf Greenshed ( talk) 14:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Keep. Wide press coverage. 92.113.204.213 ( talk) 16:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Delete, not more than news reporting, WP:NOTNEWS. But restore and merge if an article about the Dittingen airfield ( Flugplatz Dittingen) or the Dittingen air show Dittinger Flugtage) is ever written. This Basel newspaper reports that there have been five crashes in the last 35 years of the biennial air show there, so there ought to be material for an article. Sandstein 17:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.