- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Liz Read! Talk! 17:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
David Heathcote
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- David Heathcote ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A long life in service and practice of the arts and in collecting African art, nevertheless does not make the subject notable per WP:GNG or WP:ARTIST. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Artists, Arts, Nigeria, and Zimbabwe. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a look. As I said when I created the initial entry though, it's work in progress! I've now added more text to explain his significance as a major collector of Hausa artifacts in the 60s and 70s. The British Museum has acquired nearly 400 Hausa objects from him, which sounds quite significant to me. If you click on the related objects tab in the BM entry for him ( https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/BIOG124267), you'll see them. Mackthefinger ( talk) 13:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree with the comment above and support the idea that we keep the page, as Heathcote is clearly an expert on Hausa embroideries, but if his publications, artwork or collection are judged insufficiently notable, then, at least, maybe redirect the article to
Slade School of Fine Art#Notable alumni, where a minimal description with
this and
this as sources, for example, can be added. -
My, oh my!
(Mushy Yank)
21:38, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support - much appreciated Mackthefinger ( talk) 09:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I removed the exhaustive CV items and rearranged the remaining items. Added authority control. I don't know what constituents "notable" as a collector, especially when the collection is appropriation from another country that is now out from the yoke of colonization. --
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
01:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I'm happy with the reduced list of exhibitions, but the list of publications was there to demonstrate a genuine knowledge of Hausa textiles in particular. It's the sort of pre-internet bibliographic info about non-Western art or craft that isn't readily available elsewhere online - at least, not for free. For info the BM objects I checked were all made in the 1960s or 1970s and some may have been bought from the makers, thus supporting their practice. I'm a curator myself and understand your concern, but I don't see this as appropriation. On the contrary, Heathcote was taking an interest in Hausa culture and encouraging others to do the same. Mackthefinger ( talk) 13:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmmm. A random look shows
a drawing that was sold to the BM by Heathcote with no real provenance. Heathcote is described as a "vendor and collector". So, as an academic, he creates the market by writing about it. He buys up examples and then turns around and sells them to the BM where they are not on display.
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
18:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the trouble to take a closer look at one of the 391 objects now in the BM. I'm not sure it's appropriate to speculate about the collector's motives here, but I doubt if Heathcote was hoping to make money when acquiring the drawing in the 1970s. I'm very happy to accept your revisions though!
- With best wishes, and thanks again.
Mackthefinger (
talk)
14:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- True, we can't know what Heathcote's intentions were. But it is now the 21st century, and museums and their acquisition practices are facing a reckoning. The example of the Benin Bronzes shows how "baked in" the idea of buying and stealing culture was assumed to be for the good. Sure, the example of Heathcote's collection of present day Hausa objects is not the same as Lord Elgin marching off with Ancient Greek sculptures from the Parthenon, but it is the long end of the tail. Also, I have looked through a fair number of the records and still don't see any examples of the Hausa art on display.
- Over time the lens of art history changes. Bernard Berenson once had a good reputation.
- Best wishes to you, too. -- WomenArtistUpdates ( talk) 00:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmmm. A random look shows
a drawing that was sold to the BM by Heathcote with no real provenance. Heathcote is described as a "vendor and collector". So, as an academic, he creates the market by writing about it. He buys up examples and then turns around and sells them to the BM where they are not on display.
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
18:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:29, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Trim and merge - I don't think this person is either famous (or infamous) to the extent that he meets the GNG. However I do think it is important to discuss Hausa art and the reality that much of it is held in Western museums. My suggestion is that this contribution is reframed as being an archive of examples of Hausa heritage collected by this guy, and that it becomes the basis of a section of Hausa people and/or hopefully eventually it's own article. JMWt ( talk) 09:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: The GV Art exhibitions source items is enough to qualify passing GNG for me. Discussion about colonisation/appropriation etc is irrelevant to that. Macktheknifeau ( talk) 18:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
-
GV Art is the gallery representing Heathcote. The links in the article are to PDFs
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/58beb2026a4963902962832b/1488892440903/David+Heathcote+catalogue.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/606c1e3dd12d693a1a2aa278/1617698383723/David+Heathcote%2C+Numberless+Islands+-+catalogue.pdf of the catalogues produced for their show by them. Those references do not contribute to notability.
https://www.gvart.co.uk/events/2017/6/20/david-heathcote-travels-in-arcadia-friday-5-may-until-saturday-15-may-2017 is a press release for a show. --
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
00:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Where else would an art exhibition be hosted if not an art gallery? No change to my Keep. Macktheknifeau ( talk) 11:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support, and I completely agree with your comments.
- Weird that we have similar user names too. In case anyone is wondering though, there's no connection that I'm aware of! Mackthefinger ( talk) 09:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
-
GV Art is the gallery representing Heathcote. The links in the article are to PDFs
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/58beb2026a4963902962832b/1488892440903/David+Heathcote+catalogue.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/606c1e3dd12d693a1a2aa278/1617698383723/David+Heathcote%2C+Numberless+Islands+-+catalogue.pdf of the catalogues produced for their show by them. Those references do not contribute to notability.
https://www.gvart.co.uk/events/2017/6/20/david-heathcote-travels-in-arcadia-friday-5-may-until-saturday-15-may-2017 is a press release for a show. --
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
00:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Delete per nom. -- WomenArtistUpdates ( talk) 15:06, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 14:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)- Thanks for the relisting. As I said earlier, he's a major collector of (modern) Hausa objects, nearly 400 of which are now in the British Museum and listed on their website. That still seems to be "worthy of notice" to me. I would have preferred to retain a (pre-Internet and sometimes not so easy to verify) list of his publications too, as these demonstrate his genuine knowledge of the subject. If necessary I'd be happy just to list the ones included in the British Museum's biography of him, which are thus verified. He also happens to be an artist, so some of the biographical info inevitably comes from recent catalogues of exhibitions.
- I'm a curator myself and, for what it's worth, I think collectors are generally under-represented in Wikipedia. There are several others I'd like to add, including some who aren't so well known as they should be.
- With best wishes Mackthefinger ( talk) 13:53, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
- Keep (weak): An entry at the British Museum [1]. This page also lists in his bibliography:
Bibliography
- 'A Leatherworker of Zaria City', The Nigerian Field, xxxix 1974, No.1 pp.12-16, and No.3, pp.99-117.
- ‘Hausa Embroidered Dress’, in ‘African Arts’, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Winter, 1972), pp. 12-19+82+84
- ‘A Hausa Charm Gown’, in ‘Man’, New Series, Vol. 9, No. 4 (Dec., 1974), pp. 620-624. [Apropos BM 2008,2025.23]
His collection has ended up in some notable places, I'd be surprised if there wasn't commentary about them in art journals. Agree on the idea of trimming the article. Closer should consider this is a weak keep. // Timothy :: talk 17:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I've now added a ref to a BBC African Service item about the 1976 Hausa exhibition, plus an Arts Daily report about an exhibition of his own artworks in 2011.
Mackthefinger (
talk)
12:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've also trimmed the text and removed some duplication. Mackthefinger ( talk) 14:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. Liz Read! Talk! 17:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
David Heathcote
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- David Heathcote ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
A long life in service and practice of the arts and in collecting African art, nevertheless does not make the subject notable per WP:GNG or WP:ARTIST. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Artists, Arts, Nigeria, and Zimbabwe. Alexandermcnabb ( talk) 09:47, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a look. As I said when I created the initial entry though, it's work in progress! I've now added more text to explain his significance as a major collector of Hausa artifacts in the 60s and 70s. The British Museum has acquired nearly 400 Hausa objects from him, which sounds quite significant to me. If you click on the related objects tab in the BM entry for him ( https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/BIOG124267), you'll see them. Mackthefinger ( talk) 13:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree with the comment above and support the idea that we keep the page, as Heathcote is clearly an expert on Hausa embroideries, but if his publications, artwork or collection are judged insufficiently notable, then, at least, maybe redirect the article to
Slade School of Fine Art#Notable alumni, where a minimal description with
this and
this as sources, for example, can be added. -
My, oh my!
(Mushy Yank)
21:38, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support - much appreciated Mackthefinger ( talk) 09:36, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I removed the exhaustive CV items and rearranged the remaining items. Added authority control. I don't know what constituents "notable" as a collector, especially when the collection is appropriation from another country that is now out from the yoke of colonization. --
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
01:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I'm happy with the reduced list of exhibitions, but the list of publications was there to demonstrate a genuine knowledge of Hausa textiles in particular. It's the sort of pre-internet bibliographic info about non-Western art or craft that isn't readily available elsewhere online - at least, not for free. For info the BM objects I checked were all made in the 1960s or 1970s and some may have been bought from the makers, thus supporting their practice. I'm a curator myself and understand your concern, but I don't see this as appropriation. On the contrary, Heathcote was taking an interest in Hausa culture and encouraging others to do the same. Mackthefinger ( talk) 13:58, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmmm. A random look shows
a drawing that was sold to the BM by Heathcote with no real provenance. Heathcote is described as a "vendor and collector". So, as an academic, he creates the market by writing about it. He buys up examples and then turns around and sells them to the BM where they are not on display.
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
18:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking the trouble to take a closer look at one of the 391 objects now in the BM. I'm not sure it's appropriate to speculate about the collector's motives here, but I doubt if Heathcote was hoping to make money when acquiring the drawing in the 1970s. I'm very happy to accept your revisions though!
- With best wishes, and thanks again.
Mackthefinger (
talk)
14:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
- True, we can't know what Heathcote's intentions were. But it is now the 21st century, and museums and their acquisition practices are facing a reckoning. The example of the Benin Bronzes shows how "baked in" the idea of buying and stealing culture was assumed to be for the good. Sure, the example of Heathcote's collection of present day Hausa objects is not the same as Lord Elgin marching off with Ancient Greek sculptures from the Parthenon, but it is the long end of the tail. Also, I have looked through a fair number of the records and still don't see any examples of the Hausa art on display.
- Over time the lens of art history changes. Bernard Berenson once had a good reputation.
- Best wishes to you, too. -- WomenArtistUpdates ( talk) 00:40, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
- Hmmmm. A random look shows
a drawing that was sold to the BM by Heathcote with no real provenance. Heathcote is described as a "vendor and collector". So, as an academic, he creates the market by writing about it. He buys up examples and then turns around and sells them to the BM where they are not on display.
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
18:36, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:29, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Trim and merge - I don't think this person is either famous (or infamous) to the extent that he meets the GNG. However I do think it is important to discuss Hausa art and the reality that much of it is held in Western museums. My suggestion is that this contribution is reframed as being an archive of examples of Hausa heritage collected by this guy, and that it becomes the basis of a section of Hausa people and/or hopefully eventually it's own article. JMWt ( talk) 09:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Keep: The GV Art exhibitions source items is enough to qualify passing GNG for me. Discussion about colonisation/appropriation etc is irrelevant to that. Macktheknifeau ( talk) 18:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
-
GV Art is the gallery representing Heathcote. The links in the article are to PDFs
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/58beb2026a4963902962832b/1488892440903/David+Heathcote+catalogue.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/606c1e3dd12d693a1a2aa278/1617698383723/David+Heathcote%2C+Numberless+Islands+-+catalogue.pdf of the catalogues produced for their show by them. Those references do not contribute to notability.
https://www.gvart.co.uk/events/2017/6/20/david-heathcote-travels-in-arcadia-friday-5-may-until-saturday-15-may-2017 is a press release for a show. --
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
00:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Where else would an art exhibition be hosted if not an art gallery? No change to my Keep. Macktheknifeau ( talk) 11:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your support, and I completely agree with your comments.
- Weird that we have similar user names too. In case anyone is wondering though, there's no connection that I'm aware of! Mackthefinger ( talk) 09:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
-
GV Art is the gallery representing Heathcote. The links in the article are to PDFs
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/58beb2026a4963902962832b/1488892440903/David+Heathcote+catalogue.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bd99fb2994ca1d92720ca7/t/606c1e3dd12d693a1a2aa278/1617698383723/David+Heathcote%2C+Numberless+Islands+-+catalogue.pdf of the catalogues produced for their show by them. Those references do not contribute to notability.
https://www.gvart.co.uk/events/2017/6/20/david-heathcote-travels-in-arcadia-friday-5-may-until-saturday-15-may-2017 is a press release for a show. --
WomenArtistUpdates (
talk)
00:49, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Delete per nom. -- WomenArtistUpdates ( talk) 15:06, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Eddie891 Talk Work 14:37, 5 October 2023 (UTC)- Thanks for the relisting. As I said earlier, he's a major collector of (modern) Hausa objects, nearly 400 of which are now in the British Museum and listed on their website. That still seems to be "worthy of notice" to me. I would have preferred to retain a (pre-Internet and sometimes not so easy to verify) list of his publications too, as these demonstrate his genuine knowledge of the subject. If necessary I'd be happy just to list the ones included in the British Museum's biography of him, which are thus verified. He also happens to be an artist, so some of the biographical info inevitably comes from recent catalogues of exhibitions.
- I'm a curator myself and, for what it's worth, I think collectors are generally under-represented in Wikipedia. There are several others I'd like to add, including some who aren't so well known as they should be.
- With best wishes Mackthefinger ( talk) 13:53, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
- Keep (weak): An entry at the British Museum [1]. This page also lists in his bibliography:
Bibliography
- 'A Leatherworker of Zaria City', The Nigerian Field, xxxix 1974, No.1 pp.12-16, and No.3, pp.99-117.
- ‘Hausa Embroidered Dress’, in ‘African Arts’, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Winter, 1972), pp. 12-19+82+84
- ‘A Hausa Charm Gown’, in ‘Man’, New Series, Vol. 9, No. 4 (Dec., 1974), pp. 620-624. [Apropos BM 2008,2025.23]
His collection has ended up in some notable places, I'd be surprised if there wasn't commentary about them in art journals. Agree on the idea of trimming the article. Closer should consider this is a weak keep. // Timothy :: talk 17:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments and suggestions. I've now added a ref to a BBC African Service item about the 1976 Hausa exhibition, plus an Arts Daily report about an exhibition of his own artworks in 2011.
Mackthefinger (
talk)
12:59, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've also trimmed the text and removed some duplication. Mackthefinger ( talk) 14:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.