- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge and redirect, target to be determined. Regrettably there's been no further engagement since Liz relisted, but there's clear consensus here against a standalone article, and as such I don't see a purpose in prolonging this discussion. Redirect target can be determined through talk page discussion, or an RfD if absolutely needed. Mergers are likely justified to multiple articles: there is no reason the content must all be on a single page and not elsewhere. Vanamonde ( Talk) 16:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
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- Dandelion (crater) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Minor lunar crater that does not pass WP:GNG or WP:NASTRO, a search of Google Scholar brought up nothing of interest, and a general search brought up only passing mentions in relation to it being named after the Ray Bradbury novel. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 01:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Science, Astronomy, and Geography. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 01:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, interesting factoid but only notable as a fun story about Ray Bradbury. Andre 🚐 01:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to the book, nothing else found.
Oaktree b (
talk)
01:37, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Oaktree b. Check out Praemonitus' comment right under yours, another book has been found. Are two enough? Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Apollo 15 operations on the Lunar surface. This was a crater the astronauts planned to visit, but changed their plans. [1] Praemonitus ( talk) 02:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, a namesake honor to science fiction writer Ray Bradbury, who probably influenced the career choice of many of the space-age scientists, astronomers, and those in related fields who worked in the Apollo and other programs. This honor is mentioned in two reputable source books (thanks Praemonitus for finding this second source), which seems notable enough to "pass" the Keep bar. Since visiting the crater was on the to-do list for Apollo 15 but didn't get done, being part of its mission plan seems another notable point in its favor. Randy Kryn ( talk) 02:59, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge/Redirect to Dandelion Wine. Two mere mentions in books is not SIGCOV (the cited source in the article is a single sentence). This can be adequately covered elsewhere. Also who cares how about beloved Ray Bradbury is or his wider influence in society? This is a single namesake reference to a book, and sources do not seem to place extended emphasis on this crater. Do all streets named after notable people get WP:INHERITED notability? No. - Indy beetle ( talk) 09:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, the source that Praemonitus found is also a passing mention, the crater is literally mentioned once in this sentence: "the plan was to swing east and drive along the flank of the mountain for 3km to two craters called Dandelion and Frost, the latter of which marked the maximum walkback limit" This is literally not even a sentence of coverage, it very clearly does not contribute to a GNG pass.
Devonian Wombat (
talk)
21:54, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- It testifies to the fact that Dandelion crater was to be an Apollo 15 mission-visited crater. This is actually a pretty big deal, even if the mission was changed during the Lunar Roving Vehicle mission and Dandelion wasn't visited. This further establishes an Apollo era notability for this crater. Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- No it doesn't, as there is still no significant coverage for the crater itself, only an extremely brief passing mention. As being part of a manned space exploration mission plan, or indeed actually being visited by Astronauts, is not one of the criteria outlined in WP:NASTCRIT, then that specific fact is irrelevant for notability purposes. If other sources are found, as hopefully they will be, and the article is kept than it would be sufficient for including said information in the article, but it's not enough to count towards keeping the article right now. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 03:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Neither
WP:NASTRO nor
WP:NASTCRIT, used as major criteria in the nomination's wording and in subsequent reasoning, apply to this nomination. A crater is not an astronomical object. It is a crater on an astronomical object, the Moon.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
04:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NGEO also does not apply to extraterrestrial locations, and instead points to NASTRO. If clarification is needed, a discussion at WT:NASTRO or WP:VPP will be needed. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 04:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge/Redirect to the book. I'm not sure how big the crater is, but there are literally millions of minor craters on the moon, at least if the statisics for martian craters are anything to go by. There's just nothing here worth keeping. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 16:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, there are at least 1,559 Wikipedia pages about craters on the Moon and what the mergerers here are saying is that Dandelion crater is the least important one and will be thrown overboard. I say keep them all, the more the merrier for a full encyclopedia, at least for ones that have a backstory. Dandelion crater, named after a masterpiece by Ray Bradbury, a spiritual father to many working in the space program, seems an extremely nice notable honoring of both a man and his work, and seems more than a good reason to keep this. On top of that, it became the end-point destination of a trip on the
Lunar Roving Vehicle by the two moonbound astronauts of Apollo 15 - they were on their way to Dandelion crater! Which would have further honored Ray Bradbury. En route they changed their mind, which does not diminish the historical position of the crater to one of the three Lunar Roving Vehicle exploration missions. 1,559th on the list? Not by an
Alan Shepard longshot.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
21:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is, if RS agreed with you, surely we'd have more sources? -
Indy beetle (
talk)
01:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not a problem. Two books mention the honor, a major book on Ray Bradbury and a good book on the Moon missions. Remember that Apollo 15 was the first use of the
Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the mission plan calling for a visit to Dandelion crater had to have a well thought out purpose centered around a destination.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
12:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- There are literally
over 2 million craters on the moon, that's approximately 1/3 the count of all English Wikipedia articles.
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
15:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but obviously Wikipedia doesn't have two million articles about lunar craters. It does have at least 1,559 and, due to this honoring of the writing and popularization of space travel by Bradbury, and the dedication to culture and personal sentimentality of the crew and planning team for Apollo 15 (who had arranged a visit to this crater), Dandelion is one of the notable ones.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
19:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I don't understand is why we need a whole article to handle less than two sentences of coverage that could easily be placed elsewhere. This like
Bill Clinton's high school jazz band... -
Indy beetle (
talk)
20:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- The crater was not named to honor Bill Clinton or his high school jazz band, who I realize did inspire generations of scientists to join into the conquest of jazz, ah, I mean space. Nor was a gig by Clinton's High School jazz band (named for their hit recording "The Meaning of "Is is") the travel destination of a long drive on the Moon during a jaw-dropping historical trek. But yes, Bill Clinton's High School Jazz Band was the bee's knees, just like this crater. Randy Kryn ( talk) 21:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I don't understand is why we need a whole article to handle less than two sentences of coverage that could easily be placed elsewhere. This like
Bill Clinton's high school jazz band... -
Indy beetle (
talk)
20:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but obviously Wikipedia doesn't have two million articles about lunar craters. It does have at least 1,559 and, due to this honoring of the writing and popularization of space travel by Bradbury, and the dedication to culture and personal sentimentality of the crew and planning team for Apollo 15 (who had arranged a visit to this crater), Dandelion is one of the notable ones.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
19:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- There are literally
over 2 million craters on the moon, that's approximately 1/3 the count of all English Wikipedia articles.
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
15:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not a problem. Two books mention the honor, a major book on Ray Bradbury and a good book on the Moon missions. Remember that Apollo 15 was the first use of the
Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the mission plan calling for a visit to Dandelion crater had to have a well thought out purpose centered around a destination.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
12:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is, if RS agreed with you, surely we'd have more sources? -
Indy beetle (
talk)
01:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I mean was, Martin Walker's statement, in a newspaper article about Bill Clinton,[2] that "In high school, he was part of a jazz band called Three Blind Mice" is plainly a trivial mention of that band. is the same as "the plan was to swing east and drive along the flank of the mountain for 3km to two craters called Dandelion and Frost, the latter of which marked the maximum walkback limit" being a plainly trivial mention of that crater. - Indy beetle ( talk) 22:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Trivial to some, a notable and noble mention to others (enjoyed the Frost crater page, maybe the photo used there also includes Dandelion, which is now burdened by an odd image). Randy Kryn ( talk) 22:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Leaning towards Merge/Redirect but two different targets have been mentioned. Relisting for another week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:35, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merge and redirect, target to be determined. Regrettably there's been no further engagement since Liz relisted, but there's clear consensus here against a standalone article, and as such I don't see a purpose in prolonging this discussion. Redirect target can be determined through talk page discussion, or an RfD if absolutely needed. Mergers are likely justified to multiple articles: there is no reason the content must all be on a single page and not elsewhere. Vanamonde ( Talk) 16:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!
- Dandelion (crater) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Minor lunar crater that does not pass WP:GNG or WP:NASTRO, a search of Google Scholar brought up nothing of interest, and a general search brought up only passing mentions in relation to it being named after the Ray Bradbury novel. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 01:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Science, Astronomy, and Geography. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 01:18, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Delete, interesting factoid but only notable as a fun story about Ray Bradbury. Andre 🚐 01:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge to the book, nothing else found.
Oaktree b (
talk)
01:37, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Oaktree b. Check out Praemonitus' comment right under yours, another book has been found. Are two enough? Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:22, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Redirect to Apollo 15 operations on the Lunar surface. This was a crater the astronauts planned to visit, but changed their plans. [1] Praemonitus ( talk) 02:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Keep, a namesake honor to science fiction writer Ray Bradbury, who probably influenced the career choice of many of the space-age scientists, astronomers, and those in related fields who worked in the Apollo and other programs. This honor is mentioned in two reputable source books (thanks Praemonitus for finding this second source), which seems notable enough to "pass" the Keep bar. Since visiting the crater was on the to-do list for Apollo 15 but didn't get done, being part of its mission plan seems another notable point in its favor. Randy Kryn ( talk) 02:59, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge/Redirect to Dandelion Wine. Two mere mentions in books is not SIGCOV (the cited source in the article is a single sentence). This can be adequately covered elsewhere. Also who cares how about beloved Ray Bradbury is or his wider influence in society? This is a single namesake reference to a book, and sources do not seem to place extended emphasis on this crater. Do all streets named after notable people get WP:INHERITED notability? No. - Indy beetle ( talk) 09:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, the source that Praemonitus found is also a passing mention, the crater is literally mentioned once in this sentence: "the plan was to swing east and drive along the flank of the mountain for 3km to two craters called Dandelion and Frost, the latter of which marked the maximum walkback limit" This is literally not even a sentence of coverage, it very clearly does not contribute to a GNG pass.
Devonian Wombat (
talk)
21:54, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
- It testifies to the fact that Dandelion crater was to be an Apollo 15 mission-visited crater. This is actually a pretty big deal, even if the mission was changed during the Lunar Roving Vehicle mission and Dandelion wasn't visited. This further establishes an Apollo era notability for this crater. Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- No it doesn't, as there is still no significant coverage for the crater itself, only an extremely brief passing mention. As being part of a manned space exploration mission plan, or indeed actually being visited by Astronauts, is not one of the criteria outlined in WP:NASTCRIT, then that specific fact is irrelevant for notability purposes. If other sources are found, as hopefully they will be, and the article is kept than it would be sufficient for including said information in the article, but it's not enough to count towards keeping the article right now. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 03:44, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: Neither
WP:NASTRO nor
WP:NASTCRIT, used as major criteria in the nomination's wording and in subsequent reasoning, apply to this nomination. A crater is not an astronomical object. It is a crater on an astronomical object, the Moon.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
04:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NGEO also does not apply to extraterrestrial locations, and instead points to NASTRO. If clarification is needed, a discussion at WT:NASTRO or WP:VPP will be needed. – LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄) 04:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Merge/Redirect to the book. I'm not sure how big the crater is, but there are literally millions of minor craters on the moon, at least if the statisics for martian craters are anything to go by. There's just nothing here worth keeping. Hemiauchenia ( talk) 16:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Comment, there are at least 1,559 Wikipedia pages about craters on the Moon and what the mergerers here are saying is that Dandelion crater is the least important one and will be thrown overboard. I say keep them all, the more the merrier for a full encyclopedia, at least for ones that have a backstory. Dandelion crater, named after a masterpiece by Ray Bradbury, a spiritual father to many working in the space program, seems an extremely nice notable honoring of both a man and his work, and seems more than a good reason to keep this. On top of that, it became the end-point destination of a trip on the
Lunar Roving Vehicle by the two moonbound astronauts of Apollo 15 - they were on their way to Dandelion crater! Which would have further honored Ray Bradbury. En route they changed their mind, which does not diminish the historical position of the crater to one of the three Lunar Roving Vehicle exploration missions. 1,559th on the list? Not by an
Alan Shepard longshot.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
21:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is, if RS agreed with you, surely we'd have more sources? -
Indy beetle (
talk)
01:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not a problem. Two books mention the honor, a major book on Ray Bradbury and a good book on the Moon missions. Remember that Apollo 15 was the first use of the
Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the mission plan calling for a visit to Dandelion crater had to have a well thought out purpose centered around a destination.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
12:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- There are literally
over 2 million craters on the moon, that's approximately 1/3 the count of all English Wikipedia articles.
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
15:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but obviously Wikipedia doesn't have two million articles about lunar craters. It does have at least 1,559 and, due to this honoring of the writing and popularization of space travel by Bradbury, and the dedication to culture and personal sentimentality of the crew and planning team for Apollo 15 (who had arranged a visit to this crater), Dandelion is one of the notable ones.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
19:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I don't understand is why we need a whole article to handle less than two sentences of coverage that could easily be placed elsewhere. This like
Bill Clinton's high school jazz band... -
Indy beetle (
talk)
20:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- The crater was not named to honor Bill Clinton or his high school jazz band, who I realize did inspire generations of scientists to join into the conquest of jazz, ah, I mean space. Nor was a gig by Clinton's High School jazz band (named for their hit recording "The Meaning of "Is is") the travel destination of a long drive on the Moon during a jaw-dropping historical trek. But yes, Bill Clinton's High School Jazz Band was the bee's knees, just like this crater. Randy Kryn ( talk) 21:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I don't understand is why we need a whole article to handle less than two sentences of coverage that could easily be placed elsewhere. This like
Bill Clinton's high school jazz band... -
Indy beetle (
talk)
20:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but obviously Wikipedia doesn't have two million articles about lunar craters. It does have at least 1,559 and, due to this honoring of the writing and popularization of space travel by Bradbury, and the dedication to culture and personal sentimentality of the crew and planning team for Apollo 15 (who had arranged a visit to this crater), Dandelion is one of the notable ones.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
19:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- There are literally
over 2 million craters on the moon, that's approximately 1/3 the count of all English Wikipedia articles.
Hemiauchenia (
talk)
15:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Not a problem. Two books mention the honor, a major book on Ray Bradbury and a good book on the Moon missions. Remember that Apollo 15 was the first use of the
Lunar Roving Vehicle, and the mission plan calling for a visit to Dandelion crater had to have a well thought out purpose centered around a destination.
Randy Kryn (
talk)
12:05, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- The problem is, if RS agreed with you, surely we'd have more sources? -
Indy beetle (
talk)
01:35, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- What I mean was, Martin Walker's statement, in a newspaper article about Bill Clinton,[2] that "In high school, he was part of a jazz band called Three Blind Mice" is plainly a trivial mention of that band. is the same as "the plan was to swing east and drive along the flank of the mountain for 3km to two craters called Dandelion and Frost, the latter of which marked the maximum walkback limit" being a plainly trivial mention of that crater. - Indy beetle ( talk) 22:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- Trivial to some, a notable and noble mention to others (enjoyed the Frost crater page, maybe the photo used there also includes Dandelion, which is now burdened by an odd image). Randy Kryn ( talk) 22:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Leaning towards Merge/Redirect but two different targets have been mentioned. Relisting for another week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:35, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.