- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is certainly no consensus to delete this article. Most of the discussion revolves around the question of whether Craig Gill is notable enough to justify a stand-alone article, or whether the article should be re-directed to The Inspiral Carpets. As that is a discussion better suited to the article's talk page, I'm closing the AfD. Joyous! | Talk 01:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- Craig Gill ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not independently notable other than his involvement with Inspiral Carpets. Should revert to a redirect. Rob Sinden ( talk) 08:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - major newspapers think he is notable enough to run major stories about his death. See
[1],
[2],
[3] etc. --
Racklever (
talk)
09:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- But not one of the articles gives any in depth coverage to any activities outside of being the drummer for
Inspiral Carpets. Per
WP:SUBNOT at
WP:Notability (music):
"material about individual members of a musical group are normally merged into larger articles about the group""
. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:22, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- But not one of the articles gives any in depth coverage to any activities outside of being the drummer for
Inspiral Carpets. Per
WP:SUBNOT at
WP:Notability (music):
- Keep Article can, and should, be expanded to include his knowledge on Madchester etc. More than just a drummer, as newspaper coverage shows
doktorb
words
deeds
10:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Please could you advise what further information you would intend adding to the article. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per above. VegasCasinoKid ( talk) 10:29, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep Death alone is not a reason for deletion. Gill was more than a drummer for a successful band - he was part of Manchester's wider cultural scene with his tours, book and DJing. Every newspaper and many music sites have carried obituaries of Gill - that makes him important enough to retain his entry here. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Purpleprose (
talk •
contribs)
10:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Eh? What does "Death alone is not a reason for deletion" mean? The other other activities you list are not notable. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - countless reports of his death support his notability as the ex-drummer with one of the most prominent musical acts ever to come out of Manchester. It's also hard to believe that an article fully 9 years old would suddenly be nominated for deletion, and I'd question the rationale behind that action.
Ref
(chew)
(do)
13:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- The "article" has been a redirect for some time as the subject is not independently notable. It was changed to back to a stub article yesterday in the event of his death, but nothing new, other than his death, has been added. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep Absolutely positively keep. The Inspiral Carpets are a well known band, and Craig was certainly a part of that and Manchester music culture. The rationale for deletion is bizarre. 'Nothing new' has been added on countless pages for all manner of reasons. Is there a stopwatch running on each page to check if nothing new is happening, before the delete button is pressed? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
172.78.124.0 (
talk)
16:33, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing new has been added to justify changing it from a redirect to an article. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 16:45, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to band. None of the Keep statements above have been able to point to significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Until such coverage is found, the subject of this article cannot be presumed to be notable. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 17:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to Inspiral Carpets. Under the criteria of WP:MUSIC an artist needs to have had a notable career outside of the band. This is always a difficult proposition when it concerns drummers. A quick check at discogs.com shows that his output is all with the Inspiral Carpets. There is a hint of him being an author, but that book was written together with a well-know local journalist. All obits describe him as the drummer of the band. Karst ( talk) 21:55, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect. Was already one beforehand as there wasn't any sufficient info. His death doesn't make him notable either, so it's best to restore the redirect. Rusted AutoParts 06:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep. What makes the Muse drummer Dominic Howard notable enough to have a page dedicated to him, outside of the context of his membership of that band? Nothing at all (according to the article), yet his page isn't up for deletion. It is also notable that Craig Gill is now the subject of a reasonably well publicised campaign to get an Inspiral Carpets song to number one in the UK at Christmas 2016, in his memory. — added by AtheistMT ( talk) 16:34, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- AtheistMT ( talk · contribs) has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD. Rob Sinden ( talk) 15:13, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- Dominic Howard has nothing to do with this AfD. If you feel that his article is a candidate for AfD feel free to submit one through the usual process. That fans are trying to get one the songs into the UK Top 40 is a great gesture, but only serves to confirm that the individual is not notable outside of the band under the criteria of
WP:MUSIC.
Karst (
talk)
17:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Why don't you answer my question? What makes Dominic Howard notable outside of the context of Muse, so as to warrant a dedicated article? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk)
17:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- If I may, a more pertinent question would be now that the authorities have been notified of Dominic Howard's 'non-notability', why hasn't his article been nominated for deletion, as well as countless others where musicians are not notable outside of their work within a band or group? Could it be that there is a subjective test applied to the notability/popularity of the band itself? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.78.124.0 ( talk) 18:02, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Why don't you answer my question? What makes Dominic Howard notable outside of the context of Muse, so as to warrant a dedicated article? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk)
17:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep Drummer of a seminal Manchester band and a well known on the Manchester cultural scene. Plus many national papers ran obituary columns. Quentin X ( talk) 23:27, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Such as? At the moment there is only a local BBC News Manchester reference.
Karst (
talk)
13:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Daily Mirror - a large UK tabloid news outlet - http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/inspiral-carpets-craig-gill-dead-9308839
- The Sun - probably the largest UK tabloid news outlet - https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2239423/who-was-craig-gill-inspiral-carpets-drummer-dead-44/
- The London Evening Standard - evidence that there is national coverage of the subject -
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/craig-gill-inspiral-carpets-drummer-dies-aged-44-a3401961.html — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk •
contribs)
19:27, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that tabloid newspapers are not considered to be
reliable sources here. The London Standard is generally fine. The one thing the article *should* mention is Gill's Manchester Music Tours, a company he established in 2005, according to
this. If enough third party sources concerning that could be added, I would be minded to change my declaration to weak keep.
Karst (
talk)
23:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Can we agree that if the article is expanded sufficiently, to include further references to Mr. Gill's other works outside of the band and also the various references in both mainstream and social media post-mortem, it warrants keep status? This will include information regarding the Christmas number one campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AtheistMT ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- These sources still do not evidence any real notability outside of being the drummer in Inspiral Carpets. Running a music tour of a city is not notable in itself. --
Rob Sinden (
talk)
08:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- The Official UK Charts Company considers it notable to mention on their website that the campaign to get their track to Christmas number one, enough to include it in its contenders list. http://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/christmas-number-1-2016-the-contenders-revealed__17110/ - The Facebook page created in support of this campaign has attracted over 25,000 followers in one week - In response to the view that tabloid outlets are unreliable (which I generally agree with, however in this case they have reported factually), the Guardian ran this https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/nov/22/inspiral-carpets-drummer-craig-gill-dies-aged-44 and The Metro ran this http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/22/craig-gill-drummer-for-the-inspiral-carpets-has-died-aged-44-6275696/ - The fact various high profile individuals within the music scene (Liam Gallagher to name one) saw fit to comment publicly about his passing, demonstrates he was recognised widely and well regarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AtheistMT ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- He also contributed as a 'talking head' in a section of a recent BBC programme called the 'People's History of Pop', broadcast on BBC4, which presumably means the BBC considered him noteworthy of inclusion -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b083dj11 — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk •
contribs)
18:52, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- And any of this information can be included at
Inspiral Carpets. None of this demonstrates notability of this individual outside of his work in the band. --
Rob Sinden (
talk)
09:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Really? This isn't about the entire membership of the band, or indeed the band itself. This is about an individual member whom has died suddenly and the ground swell of feeling, widespread reporting, recognition and proactivity generated as a direct consequence. The subjective approach to deciding what to keep, delete or redirect would be fine, were it consistent. If it were, the 'drummer in X' in every band on Wikipedia would have the same rules applied. And in actual fact, the rules would apply to practically every member of every band that didn't do anything 'notable', such as simply turn up and play. Larry Mullen Jnr, Paul Kodish, Dominic Howard (as previously cited) or Stephen Morris. As drummers in their respective bands, they are no more or less notable in this context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.33.147 ( talk) 20:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- And any of this information can be included at
Inspiral Carpets. None of this demonstrates notability of this individual outside of his work in the band. --
Rob Sinden (
talk)
09:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that tabloid newspapers are not considered to be
reliable sources here. The London Standard is generally fine. The one thing the article *should* mention is Gill's Manchester Music Tours, a company he established in 2005, according to
this. If enough third party sources concerning that could be added, I would be minded to change my declaration to weak keep.
Karst (
talk)
23:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Such as? At the moment there is only a local BBC News Manchester reference.
Karst (
talk)
13:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. There is certainly no consensus to delete this article. Most of the discussion revolves around the question of whether Craig Gill is notable enough to justify a stand-alone article, or whether the article should be re-directed to The Inspiral Carpets. As that is a discussion better suited to the article's talk page, I'm closing the AfD. Joyous! | Talk 01:11, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- Craig Gill ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – ( View log · Stats)
- (Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
Not independently notable other than his involvement with Inspiral Carpets. Should revert to a redirect. Rob Sinden ( talk) 08:49, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - major newspapers think he is notable enough to run major stories about his death. See
[1],
[2],
[3] etc. --
Racklever (
talk)
09:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- But not one of the articles gives any in depth coverage to any activities outside of being the drummer for
Inspiral Carpets. Per
WP:SUBNOT at
WP:Notability (music):
"material about individual members of a musical group are normally merged into larger articles about the group""
. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:22, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- But not one of the articles gives any in depth coverage to any activities outside of being the drummer for
Inspiral Carpets. Per
WP:SUBNOT at
WP:Notability (music):
- Keep Article can, and should, be expanded to include his knowledge on Madchester etc. More than just a drummer, as newspaper coverage shows
doktorb
words
deeds
10:23, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Please could you advise what further information you would intend adding to the article. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep per above. VegasCasinoKid ( talk) 10:29, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep Death alone is not a reason for deletion. Gill was more than a drummer for a successful band - he was part of Manchester's wider cultural scene with his tours, book and DJing. Every newspaper and many music sites have carried obituaries of Gill - that makes him important enough to retain his entry here. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Purpleprose (
talk •
contribs)
10:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Eh? What does "Death alone is not a reason for deletion" mean? The other other activities you list are not notable. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep - countless reports of his death support his notability as the ex-drummer with one of the most prominent musical acts ever to come out of Manchester. It's also hard to believe that an article fully 9 years old would suddenly be nominated for deletion, and I'd question the rationale behind that action.
Ref
(chew)
(do)
13:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- The "article" has been a redirect for some time as the subject is not independently notable. It was changed to back to a stub article yesterday in the event of his death, but nothing new, other than his death, has been added. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 13:16, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep Absolutely positively keep. The Inspiral Carpets are a well known band, and Craig was certainly a part of that and Manchester music culture. The rationale for deletion is bizarre. 'Nothing new' has been added on countless pages for all manner of reasons. Is there a stopwatch running on each page to check if nothing new is happening, before the delete button is pressed? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
172.78.124.0 (
talk)
16:33, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing new has been added to justify changing it from a redirect to an article. -- Rob Sinden ( talk) 16:45, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to band. None of the Keep statements above have been able to point to significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Until such coverage is found, the subject of this article cannot be presumed to be notable. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 17:08, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect to Inspiral Carpets. Under the criteria of WP:MUSIC an artist needs to have had a notable career outside of the band. This is always a difficult proposition when it concerns drummers. A quick check at discogs.com shows that his output is all with the Inspiral Carpets. There is a hint of him being an author, but that book was written together with a well-know local journalist. All obits describe him as the drummer of the band. Karst ( talk) 21:55, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
- Redirect. Was already one beforehand as there wasn't any sufficient info. His death doesn't make him notable either, so it's best to restore the redirect. Rusted AutoParts 06:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep. What makes the Muse drummer Dominic Howard notable enough to have a page dedicated to him, outside of the context of his membership of that band? Nothing at all (according to the article), yet his page isn't up for deletion. It is also notable that Craig Gill is now the subject of a reasonably well publicised campaign to get an Inspiral Carpets song to number one in the UK at Christmas 2016, in his memory. — added by AtheistMT ( talk) 16:34, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- AtheistMT ( talk · contribs) has only contributed to the article(s) under discussion for deletion and AFD. Rob Sinden ( talk) 15:13, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- Dominic Howard has nothing to do with this AfD. If you feel that his article is a candidate for AfD feel free to submit one through the usual process. That fans are trying to get one the songs into the UK Top 40 is a great gesture, but only serves to confirm that the individual is not notable outside of the band under the criteria of
WP:MUSIC.
Karst (
talk)
17:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Why don't you answer my question? What makes Dominic Howard notable outside of the context of Muse, so as to warrant a dedicated article? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk)
17:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- If I may, a more pertinent question would be now that the authorities have been notified of Dominic Howard's 'non-notability', why hasn't his article been nominated for deletion, as well as countless others where musicians are not notable outside of their work within a band or group? Could it be that there is a subjective test applied to the notability/popularity of the band itself? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.78.124.0 ( talk) 18:02, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Why don't you answer my question? What makes Dominic Howard notable outside of the context of Muse, so as to warrant a dedicated article? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk)
17:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Keep Drummer of a seminal Manchester band and a well known on the Manchester cultural scene. Plus many national papers ran obituary columns. Quentin X ( talk) 23:27, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
- Such as? At the moment there is only a local BBC News Manchester reference.
Karst (
talk)
13:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Daily Mirror - a large UK tabloid news outlet - http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/inspiral-carpets-craig-gill-dead-9308839
- The Sun - probably the largest UK tabloid news outlet - https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/2239423/who-was-craig-gill-inspiral-carpets-drummer-dead-44/
- The London Evening Standard - evidence that there is national coverage of the subject -
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/craig-gill-inspiral-carpets-drummer-dies-aged-44-a3401961.html — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk •
contribs)
19:27, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that tabloid newspapers are not considered to be
reliable sources here. The London Standard is generally fine. The one thing the article *should* mention is Gill's Manchester Music Tours, a company he established in 2005, according to
this. If enough third party sources concerning that could be added, I would be minded to change my declaration to weak keep.
Karst (
talk)
23:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Can we agree that if the article is expanded sufficiently, to include further references to Mr. Gill's other works outside of the band and also the various references in both mainstream and social media post-mortem, it warrants keep status? This will include information regarding the Christmas number one campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AtheistMT ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- These sources still do not evidence any real notability outside of being the drummer in Inspiral Carpets. Running a music tour of a city is not notable in itself. --
Rob Sinden (
talk)
08:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- The Official UK Charts Company considers it notable to mention on their website that the campaign to get their track to Christmas number one, enough to include it in its contenders list. http://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/christmas-number-1-2016-the-contenders-revealed__17110/ - The Facebook page created in support of this campaign has attracted over 25,000 followers in one week - In response to the view that tabloid outlets are unreliable (which I generally agree with, however in this case they have reported factually), the Guardian ran this https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/nov/22/inspiral-carpets-drummer-craig-gill-dies-aged-44 and The Metro ran this http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/22/craig-gill-drummer-for-the-inspiral-carpets-has-died-aged-44-6275696/ - The fact various high profile individuals within the music scene (Liam Gallagher to name one) saw fit to comment publicly about his passing, demonstrates he was recognised widely and well regarded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AtheistMT ( talk • contribs) 18:36, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- He also contributed as a 'talking head' in a section of a recent BBC programme called the 'People's History of Pop', broadcast on BBC4, which presumably means the BBC considered him noteworthy of inclusion -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b083dj11 — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AtheistMT (
talk •
contribs)
18:52, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
- And any of this information can be included at
Inspiral Carpets. None of this demonstrates notability of this individual outside of his work in the band. --
Rob Sinden (
talk)
09:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- Really? This isn't about the entire membership of the band, or indeed the band itself. This is about an individual member whom has died suddenly and the ground swell of feeling, widespread reporting, recognition and proactivity generated as a direct consequence. The subjective approach to deciding what to keep, delete or redirect would be fine, were it consistent. If it were, the 'drummer in X' in every band on Wikipedia would have the same rules applied. And in actual fact, the rules would apply to practically every member of every band that didn't do anything 'notable', such as simply turn up and play. Larry Mullen Jnr, Paul Kodish, Dominic Howard (as previously cited) or Stephen Morris. As drummers in their respective bands, they are no more or less notable in this context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.71.33.147 ( talk) 20:41, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- And any of this information can be included at
Inspiral Carpets. None of this demonstrates notability of this individual outside of his work in the band. --
Rob Sinden (
talk)
09:01, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that tabloid newspapers are not considered to be
reliable sources here. The London Standard is generally fine. The one thing the article *should* mention is Gill's Manchester Music Tours, a company he established in 2005, according to
this. If enough third party sources concerning that could be added, I would be minded to change my declaration to weak keep.
Karst (
talk)
23:43, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- Such as? At the moment there is only a local BBC News Manchester reference.
Karst (
talk)
13:51, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.