The result of the debate was keep. Eugene van der Pijll 15:48, 31 July 2005 (UTC) reply
Striver created this article as part of his new strategy -- instead of facing community criticism of his changes to the "established" Islamic articles, he's just going to write his own Shi'a POV articles and then link them to the main articles.
This article can't be kept because even the TITLE is a Shi'a indictment of the first three caliphs -- they say that the first three caliphs made law and changed custom, whereas the community should have adhered strictly to the sunnah, or custom of the time of Muhammad. There is no way that a traditional Sunni Muslim can argue that any changes were OK -- the Sunni Muslim is going to have to deny any changes whatsoever. At which point the article just becomes a catalogue of "did" and "did not".
There is a secular, academic argument to be made about the extent of the authority ceded to the first caliphs -- best exemplified in Crone's book, God's Caliph -- but it should be made at Caliph or Sharia or possibly Ulema. Not in this abortion of an article. Zora 09:39, 17 July 2005 (UTC) reply
The Sunnis believe that the words and deeds of the Prophet, who is, according to the Quran (XXX, 21), the uswah hasahah (noble paradigm), must be followed in every walk of life, as they were followed by his sahabah (companions), tabi'un (followers of the companions), and atba' al-tabi'in (followers of the followers of the companions). "It is incumbent upon you," said the Prophet, "to follow my Sunnah AND the sunnah of the righteous caliphs (al-khulafa' al-rashidun) ( ref)
Why do you think Ali did not get choosen as the second Khalif?
Notice the Sunni twist to it. Ali refused to Follow Umar's changes, hence Uthman was selected.
Zora, you really know how to annoy me. Why did you start a vote for deletion when you only meant to change the name of the article?
All Sunnis that are going to vote, could you also include in your vote you view on what the Sunni schol says about the issue, Did Umar change anything in the Sunnah, Are Sunnis expected to follow the Sunnah of Muhammad (sa) AND the Sunnah of the four caliphs?
Do Sunnis regard triple talaq permisible, yes or no?
-- Striver 14:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC) reply
Coment
There is no pov problem, except for maybe Marwan. Ill toss down Marwan to the Shia view. Is there any more POV issues left after that?
And by the whay, POV is not solved by deleting the whole article, its solved by NPOVing or in worst case, deleting. I know that Sunni dont like to see that list. But not liking the list does not warant a deletion.
-- Striver 00:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC) reply
What we've got here is two Shi'a insisting that Wikipedia be their soapbox, that they get to have articles devoted to their "personalistic" view of history, in which everything is reduced to piety and personality. The good pious Muslims followed Ali, and were persecuted for it; the bad worldly Muslims followed the Sunni path. Anyone who did not choose Ali was a bad person, which is to be shown by oral traditions (possibly folktales or bazaar gossip) collected hundreds of years later, showing the Sunni leaders as monsters of depravity and hatred. Really -- this is history as comic book material. It IS possible to present history from a Shi'a viewpoint without turning it all into personalities. I was quite impressed with Reza Aslan's 2005 book No God But God, which is based on extensive academic research, and shows the early Muslims as making choices based on conflicting interpretations of Islam, views of how the political process was to be managed, etc. Aslan presents a Shi'a POV without turning it into hagiography/demonology.
The insistence on stuffing this material into a frame which ASSUMES that innovation is bad is also inherently POV. This is the POV of current traditionalist Islam, of "fundamentalis", of Wahabi, Salafi, and Islamist Muslims -- but it is not the POV of non-Muslims, or of Muslim liberals and reformers. Part of the material in the article could go into the Shi'a Islam article, as describing Shi'a belief, and part of it could go into Caliph, discussing early Muslim views of the authority of the caliph.
Crone makes a good argument that current-day Muslims fail to fully understand the fluid situation in the early days of the Islamic empire, in which the caliphs believed themselves to be entitled to deliver legal judgements and set precedents just as Muhammad had -- because they were his successors, and wielded his authority. Crone also points to the tremendous challenges faced by the new Islamic empire, in dealing with situations that were completely outside anything faced by Muhammad and raised questions not easily or quickly answered. The response, as many secular, academic scholars have observed, was to grant the early caliphs a great deal of legal authority, and also to adopt customary Byzantine and Sassanid law.
Crone is not the ultimate authority, and there are many academic historians who would disagree with her, but there is a dimension of this argument of which Striver and Ya Ali seem to be unaware. The article is basically a traditionalist Shi'a indictment of the first three caliphs. It deserves to be presented in Wikipedia, but in context, and in articles where alternate POVs can be presented. Zora 23:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC) reply
coment actually, i now also oppose to change the name of the article. See
Talk:Changes to the Sunnah made by the Rashidun, it proves that Umar was acting beliving that he was in charge of the Sunnah. So the name of the article is accurate.
-- Striver 02:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC) reply
The result of the debate was keep. Eugene van der Pijll 15:48, 31 July 2005 (UTC) reply
Striver created this article as part of his new strategy -- instead of facing community criticism of his changes to the "established" Islamic articles, he's just going to write his own Shi'a POV articles and then link them to the main articles.
This article can't be kept because even the TITLE is a Shi'a indictment of the first three caliphs -- they say that the first three caliphs made law and changed custom, whereas the community should have adhered strictly to the sunnah, or custom of the time of Muhammad. There is no way that a traditional Sunni Muslim can argue that any changes were OK -- the Sunni Muslim is going to have to deny any changes whatsoever. At which point the article just becomes a catalogue of "did" and "did not".
There is a secular, academic argument to be made about the extent of the authority ceded to the first caliphs -- best exemplified in Crone's book, God's Caliph -- but it should be made at Caliph or Sharia or possibly Ulema. Not in this abortion of an article. Zora 09:39, 17 July 2005 (UTC) reply
The Sunnis believe that the words and deeds of the Prophet, who is, according to the Quran (XXX, 21), the uswah hasahah (noble paradigm), must be followed in every walk of life, as they were followed by his sahabah (companions), tabi'un (followers of the companions), and atba' al-tabi'in (followers of the followers of the companions). "It is incumbent upon you," said the Prophet, "to follow my Sunnah AND the sunnah of the righteous caliphs (al-khulafa' al-rashidun) ( ref)
Why do you think Ali did not get choosen as the second Khalif?
Notice the Sunni twist to it. Ali refused to Follow Umar's changes, hence Uthman was selected.
Zora, you really know how to annoy me. Why did you start a vote for deletion when you only meant to change the name of the article?
All Sunnis that are going to vote, could you also include in your vote you view on what the Sunni schol says about the issue, Did Umar change anything in the Sunnah, Are Sunnis expected to follow the Sunnah of Muhammad (sa) AND the Sunnah of the four caliphs?
Do Sunnis regard triple talaq permisible, yes or no?
-- Striver 14:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC) reply
Coment
There is no pov problem, except for maybe Marwan. Ill toss down Marwan to the Shia view. Is there any more POV issues left after that?
And by the whay, POV is not solved by deleting the whole article, its solved by NPOVing or in worst case, deleting. I know that Sunni dont like to see that list. But not liking the list does not warant a deletion.
-- Striver 00:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC) reply
What we've got here is two Shi'a insisting that Wikipedia be their soapbox, that they get to have articles devoted to their "personalistic" view of history, in which everything is reduced to piety and personality. The good pious Muslims followed Ali, and were persecuted for it; the bad worldly Muslims followed the Sunni path. Anyone who did not choose Ali was a bad person, which is to be shown by oral traditions (possibly folktales or bazaar gossip) collected hundreds of years later, showing the Sunni leaders as monsters of depravity and hatred. Really -- this is history as comic book material. It IS possible to present history from a Shi'a viewpoint without turning it all into personalities. I was quite impressed with Reza Aslan's 2005 book No God But God, which is based on extensive academic research, and shows the early Muslims as making choices based on conflicting interpretations of Islam, views of how the political process was to be managed, etc. Aslan presents a Shi'a POV without turning it into hagiography/demonology.
The insistence on stuffing this material into a frame which ASSUMES that innovation is bad is also inherently POV. This is the POV of current traditionalist Islam, of "fundamentalis", of Wahabi, Salafi, and Islamist Muslims -- but it is not the POV of non-Muslims, or of Muslim liberals and reformers. Part of the material in the article could go into the Shi'a Islam article, as describing Shi'a belief, and part of it could go into Caliph, discussing early Muslim views of the authority of the caliph.
Crone makes a good argument that current-day Muslims fail to fully understand the fluid situation in the early days of the Islamic empire, in which the caliphs believed themselves to be entitled to deliver legal judgements and set precedents just as Muhammad had -- because they were his successors, and wielded his authority. Crone also points to the tremendous challenges faced by the new Islamic empire, in dealing with situations that were completely outside anything faced by Muhammad and raised questions not easily or quickly answered. The response, as many secular, academic scholars have observed, was to grant the early caliphs a great deal of legal authority, and also to adopt customary Byzantine and Sassanid law.
Crone is not the ultimate authority, and there are many academic historians who would disagree with her, but there is a dimension of this argument of which Striver and Ya Ali seem to be unaware. The article is basically a traditionalist Shi'a indictment of the first three caliphs. It deserves to be presented in Wikipedia, but in context, and in articles where alternate POVs can be presented. Zora 23:00, 17 July 2005 (UTC) reply
coment actually, i now also oppose to change the name of the article. See
Talk:Changes to the Sunnah made by the Rashidun, it proves that Umar was acting beliving that he was in charge of the Sunnah. So the name of the article is accurate.
-- Striver 02:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC) reply